SHAY: Welcome to How to Humanist. It's Shay Leonia, and believe it or not, I'm actually recording from Washington DC. That's right — home of the American Humanist Association. Yay. We are all here — staff and leadership and whatnot — for a retreat. I've never experienced an AHA retreat before. So, you know, party on Garth. Should be fun. Should be exciting.

What I want to go over today with you all before we get into this episode is what happened when I got off the train. Of course I had to sniff out whatever vegan food I could find in the area, which — oh my gosh, there are so many amazing options. But I decided on a place that required me to order a Lyft. So I ordered the Lyft, and the driver — with his permission, I'm gonna share a little bit of his story, and this is gonna be in lieu of me sharing our reviews aloud. Please continue to leave those reviews and comments because I love reading those, and I especially love reading those out loud for everyone. But today, hopefully you'll understand why I have to shout out my Lyft driver.

We had the most incredible conversation about his unbelievable life. I was just so mesmerized because it's such a story of what people from other countries come to America dreaming about and how it actually takes shape. This man's name is Murtada Mohamed Elamin. He came from Sudan. His wife came from Sudan. Fortunately, their family, according to him, have escaped to Uganda and are currently safe. Thank goodness.

If you aren't familiar with what's happening in Sudan right now, I cannot even begin to take the time to explain. Please — I implore you to do your research on what is happening in Sudan right now.

So we begin talking about how he came from Sudan, and he ended up joining the military when he came here and was deployed overseas to Kuwait to do carpentry work and masonry work. Actually, back home in Sudan, he is an architect, and his license to do architecture is moot here. That's why he had joined the military and whatnot.

Then he ends up going to school, getting his master's degree. His wife ends up becoming a gynecologist. But thanks to the big beautiful bill, she's not able to do that work right now. So they have just been doing the most American dream that you can possibly have, and yet this current administration and the people that are supporting this administration are trying to make it out as though they are less than, which is so unbelievably ridiculous.

We just had such a lovely conversation about me getting to hear what it was like for him to have this American dream growing up, and then to come here and work so hard to get where he's at right now. And it just dawned on me that he could just stumble on some bad luck and have a schmuck in his backseat who decides to be a schmuck and make a schmucky phone call and ruin his life.

And so I carefully asked Murtada about that — if he ever gets scared of that idea. And he said, I am not afraid. I joined the military. I'm not afraid to die, and I'm not afraid to be accused of being un-American, because I know that I am more American than all of those people who are acting this way, because they're not behaving as true Americans.

What an incredible human being. I wish that you continue to stay safe, that your family continues to stay safe and healthy. Wow. Just how grateful I am to have met you today. Thank you so much for making such an impact on my life the way that you did, and hopefully on anybody that's listening.

Now, today's episode is a topic that I have struggled with for a very long time in my own life — around forgiveness. What was interesting to me is we're gonna get to hear two different perspectives. The first is gonna be from Fish Stark, our executive director at the American Humanist Association, and he's able to provide me with some insight about how humanists approach forgiveness. But Shawn — Shawn Towers — is a former preacher and a former just gung-ho Christian. And so getting to feel validated about a lot of what I had suspected around the Christianity of the forgiveness in it all — I was really intrigued by that. So I really hope you enjoy this episode.

Again, please feel free to leave comments and reviews, and I can't wait to see whose review I'm gonna read next week.

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SHAY: I kept finding that all of my Christian friends were always hassling me about, well, why can't you forgive this person, that person, because I am really good at holding a grudge. And I've gotten so good that I have known to separate myself and go no contact with family members after a certain amount of things that we've gone through together and I just can't take it anymore. And I go no contact, and my Christian friends would say, that's your so-and-so, why can't you just forgive them?

I've even had people say to me — I don't know who said it originally — but like, forgiveness is for you, not for the other person, because you're the one that's hanging onto this. And I'm like, really? Because I don't necessarily feel that way.

I started thinking, okay, maybe it's because I'm Jewish, that in Judaism forgiveness works a very different way. But now that I am a humanist and I'm reintroducing this concept of forgiveness to myself — like I was able to talk about this with Shawn, and Shawn Towers was telling me in his way that forgiveness is actually something that is necessary in Christianity, which is why it felt so Christian to me.

But I don't know how forgiveness works with humanism. It's always been an abstract concept to me, so I'm really curious to hear if there's any clarity in forgiveness for you.

FISH: Forgiveness is tough. It's tough for me personally. I do think there's this idea in Christianity of submission as restoration. Let me put it this way — there's the parable of the Prodigal Son. So the parable of the Prodigal Son is that there are two brothers, both of the same father. The older brother is very diligent and he works in the fields on his father's farm and he does things the way that he ought to. And his younger brother badgers his father into giving him his inheritance early. And then he flees and he goes and he spends it on prostitutes and alcohol and, you know, all the kind of debauchery that a 20-year-old in Galilee might get up to. And the older son is just like, oh, alright. Here I am working in the fields.

And then the younger son, the prodigal son, comes back, and the father is so excited and he tells his servants to go out and kill the fattened calf — which I guess is the best kind of meat that they had — to celebrate, throw a feast, because his son is home. And the older son refuses to come into the feast. He's angry, he's furious. And the father comes and says, what's wrong? And he says, well, I have spent so many years being dedicated and faithful to you, and you have never even so much as given me a goat — which I guess is a lesser form of meat — to celebrate with my friends. But this son of yours, who has defiled our name and wasted all our money and gone — he comes back and you kill the fattened calf for him.

And the father is like, just be happy that he's home. And then it ends.

SHAY: That's how it ends.

FISH: That's how it ends. That's how it ends. He says something nice. He's like, look, you've always been loyal to me and all that I have is yours, but it's good that your brother is home, so let's go in and celebrate. The father's like, yeah, no, that's great. You did do everything I asked. Now let's go in and celebrate your brother who wasted all the money.

The biggest sin is separating yourself from submission to authority. And if you come back and you sort of restore yourself to the authority, that's all. We're not acknowledging all the harm the prodigal son did. We're not looking at these things in perspective. So there is this very Christian idea of forgiveness that really doesn't actually rest on any kind of restoration.

For me, when I think about ease of forgiving people in my own life, I have a really easy time forgiving people who apologize.

SHAY: Yeah.

FISH: And a really hard time forgiving people who don't.

SHAY: Same.

FISH: And that is where I have gotten the biggest pushes in my life that I feel like have relied on that religious framework of forgiveness — something that is owed to a person who tries to restore themselves in some way. I have trouble with it when I don't feel like there's been any kind of restorative work done. No attempt to fix the problem or fix the relationship.

And to me, I think the idea of forgiveness — now to be clear, forgiveness is a concept within humanism. There are people like Robert Ingersoll, the great agnostic, one of the sort of forefathers of the humanist movement in the 1800s. He talked about forgiveness a lot. He said — I wrote this down because I wanted to remember this — the narrow soul, belittle-minded, and the mean never forgive. It is not in their nature. They are too small.

So this idea of saying I am going to universally hold onto every grudge I ever have and never forgive — that clearly is not compatible with humanism because it treats people as fixed. It doesn't allow for growth. But then you have Frederick Douglass on the other hand, who said, I can forgive but I cannot forget is only another way of saying I will not forgive.

So Douglass had this nuanced position where he thought forgiveness was important, but there are also some things where he maintained his willingness and his right to say, I'll move towards you, but I'm not going to forget what you've done.

And so the conclusion I come to — because humanism is not what you think, it's not what I think. It's a combination of what — to sort of find the common thread in humanism, I often try to read four or five different humanist authors and find the connection point between them, because ultimately humanism is something that all of us are constructing together.

SHAY: Yeah.

FISH: And what I'm finding is this idea that two things are true. One is that forgiveness can be really good for our spirit when we do it for ourselves. Holding onto anger — there's this idea that holding onto anger can be corrosive. And I think that is less a value statement, like it's bad, it's sinful, it's degrading in some way to hold onto anger — as it is an acknowledgement of fact. Like we know that stewing in our frustration at another person can sometimes cause us to close our minds or even just sit in anger when we could be sitting in our joy. So I think there is this feeling that forgiveness can be a good way for us all to lead the fulfilled lives we want to live, because it gets us unstuck from the past.

There's that, and I think there's also this idea that our emotions are our own. Our emotional lives and our relationships are our own. We can't be compelled into engaging with another person in a certain way. We certainly can't be compelled to think in a certain way. And so forgiveness is a personal thing that can have benefits to us, but ultimately it's up to us to choose when to offer it.

And I think that they would say — and this is where I get frustrated with Christian concepts of forgiveness — the onus rests on the forgiver, as opposed to the person doing the forgiving being sort of absolved by their willingness to seek forgiveness. I think humanists would say we have a duty to repair harm when it happens. We have an affirmative duty to repair harm. And so restoration should not be as easy as the prodigal son coming back and throwing himself at his father's feet. We should do more work when we have caused harm to try and redeem ourselves and repair relationships than the sort of very easy, I'm sorry I did it and I'm not gonna do it again.

So I think that is what obligates people who have done harm in a humanist framework. And then what obligates the people who harm has been done to — again, I think forgiveness is a discipline we should practice, but whether we apply it in all situations really is a matter of our own conscience. And humanism has always been clear that our conscience belongs to us and no one else.

SHAY: Something that's been trending a lot lately is this conversation — it was like a headline for Mel Robbins. Anyway, Mel Robbins was trying to say that going no contact with family is wrong, don't do it. Oprah came and supported the same concept. And so a bunch of psychotherapists came out of the woodwork to say, going no contact is absolutely healthy and okay, and sometimes necessary.

Is there anything in humanism that speaks to going no contact? Or is it again like, case to case? How does that look?

FISH: It's interesting, right? The great thing about humanism — and the challenging thing about humanism — is there's no sort of book that says, thou shalt go no contact, or thou shalt never go no contact. If we look at the way people write about relationships, if we look at the way that, for instance, Vonnegut wrote about challenging relationships in his books, or the way the humanistic psychologists write about relationships, they're like, okay, relationships aren't something to treat lightly. The work of repair, and even being willing to accept the negative and challenging sides of people — like these are good things to do. If we find value in relationships, and humanists believe that one of the highest sources of life's value is in relationships, that means we shouldn't treat relationships lightly.

And I think there is a backlash that people like Mel Robbins — and I'm gonna disagree with Mel Robbins — are responding to. I think there are times where you need to go no contact with your family. But I think there's a backlash culture that people like Mel Robbins are responding to where I would literally see people say, you don't owe anyone anything. And that's bullshit. That's not a humanist belief. We owe things to people. We owe things to people by nature of having been in a relationship with them. Do we owe them the ability to walk over us and abuse us? Absolutely not. But do we owe, to people, some level of attempting to understand and attempting to repair and attempting to care in relationships that are simply challenging to our comfort, as opposed to abusive? I would argue that we do.

But I don't think it's an extreme to read that into, you should never go no contact with a family member, because we know there are instances — and again, humanism doesn't like to deal in absolutes. There are ultimately people of different lives in different circumstances. I can think of friends of mine who have chosen to go no contact with family and it's been really healthy for them. I can think of friends of mine who would probably be healthy if they did go no contact with their family. And I know of people who — I'm like, I don't know your situation, but this kind of feels capricious and it feels like you're reacting out of anger. But ultimately it's good that I don't have the authority, or think I do, to make those kind of decisions for people. Because very few people are gonna make that decision better than the person themselves.

We can't treat relationships lightly. Being in relationship obligates us, and to an extent it obligates us to understand and love, and it obligates us to a little bit of patience, I think.

SHAY: Right.

FISH: But that's not to say that just because you're in some kind of relationship that it is automatically healthy and it's one you need to continue. That because it is so it ever must be — is sort of antithetical to the way that humanists think.

SHAY: Yeah. Yeah. And what's that commandment about — like, respect thine father, whatever —

FISH: Honor thy mother and —

SHAY: Father. Honor thy mother and father. Yeah. Sometimes it's not that easy.

FISH: No. Yeah. A lot of times it's not that easy, actually.

SHAY: Yeah.

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SHAY: In Judaism, forgiveness is not like a hot topic of conversation. If anything, like at least the stereotypes say that we're really good at holding grudges. So my first time hearing people being like, you need to learn how to forgive people, was always from Christian people.

I'm somebody that, with my family in particular, there's been a lot of me having to cut family members off just for my own mental wellbeing. And I know that's a hot topic right now in the headlines. I wanted to find out from you, first of all, can you tell me more about what it is that has to do with Christianity and forgiveness and why it's such a perfect pair, like peanut butter and jelly?

SHAWN: Yeah. So the notion is we must forgive others if we want God to forgive us. Really at the end of the day, we were still trying to save our behind. The problem with that is the forgiveness had no limit as far as the offense was concerned. And there was another belief — forgiving someone 70 times seven, metaphorically. In other words, basically forgiven virtually all the time. And so for me as a believer, I didn't argue with that. I was scared to go to hell. And so it didn't matter what someone did to me, or how I felt about it. It was like, I must forgive them because I don't want to be judged. So that was the view on forgiveness. It took some time before I changed my view concerning forgiveness.

SHAY: What's that seven times seven thing that you mentioned? I just know a Seagram's Seven and Seven.

SHAWN: Oh, okay. There's a verse of scripture that says one of the disciples asked Jesus, how many times do I forgive my brother? He said, 70 times seven.

SHAY: Oh.

SHAWN: And it's not like an exact number — whatever that is, that's how many times — but it's more so saying basically, you're gonna forgive over and over again, as many times as you need to give forgiveness, you're gonna give it.

SHAY: Yeah.

SHAWN: So what is it like when you are processing forgiveness from a Christian standpoint, at least speaking for you — what was it like to go through the process of forgiveness, from being angry at somebody that had wronged you and then bringing yourself to forgive? What did it look like?

SHAY: Well, for me — and I always say this — because of how devout I was, it was not as hard, because I would view it as the person doesn't know what they're doing. And also for me to forgive and simply let it go was going to satisfy or please my deity, my God. And so for me it was, I must forgive because I'm gonna grow through it, my God is gonna be pleased, and anything that I might do against someone else is gonna be forgiven. It was a safety net.

But what is it — I'm gonna keep grinding this ax because —

SHAWN: Come on, keep going.

SHAY: I don't know what forgiveness feels like. I —

SHAWN: Yeah.

SHAY: I feel like —

SHAWN: Yeah. Would it feel like — so if I can dig into how I felt when I participated in that form of forgiveness, it was like — I would call it today, looking backward, a false sense of self-righteousness. You're better. You won't say this out of your mouth, but you're better than others because others won't forgive. And so there's this silent pride that no one speaks about when it comes to this forgiveness.

Do you ever notice — you've seen it time and time again in the news — parents lose a child to some type of violence, and then they get before the cameras and the first thing anyone says is, we forgive the shooter, or we forgive —

SHAY: Yeah.

SHAWN: Listen. Within that, it's similar to — there's a verse of scripture where Jesus was talking about when you did alms or you gave to the poor or whatever, did human services. He said not to announce it, but to do it in private. But you have those that like to be seen giving and stuff like that, because it's about them really, even though the video shows them giving. What you don't see is that it's an ego boost for themselves, which gives them a feeling of superiority when compared to someone who does not or will not do what they do.

So forgiveness — the feeling of it is a self-righteous feeling. Many won't admit that, but you do have a sense of feeling that you're better than the average person who will not forgive.

SHAY: Yeah. I've been in countless positions where I've been asking somebody for forgiveness. And there are specific thoughts I have in mind and memories of asking someone for forgiveness. It was a friend that I had done something really messed up, and a couple of years went by and I reached out to them and I asked them to forgive me. And I knew what I was seeking was for them to say that it was okay, that we could start fresh with our friendship and all that. But they said, do you know what you did? I can't forgive you. And I was like, you know what, I gotta take it. But I know what I was seeking.

But to be somebody on the other end of being asked for forgiveness — I think for me it's always felt so abstract. And people always try to impose that it's a heavy weight that I must walk around with, but honestly it isn't. It's just no — it's just fresh on my mind what this person did and why I won't forgive them. So I don't know. I don't know if it's just been a theory of mine that it's such a Christian value, but this conversation already is confirming some —

SHAWN: Yeah. Without a doubt. Because let me say something else. I don't want to get ahead of myself, I'll wait until you —

SHAY: Nah, nah, go for it.

SHAWN: I wanted to address how I view forgiveness now. But I wanted to add something real quick to the other example defining it. What happens with forgiveness and — yeah.

Okay. So really, are you saying that you could hang out with the person again, that y'all can reconcile or whatever the case may be? Let's say going back to the tragic situation of someone losing a child. When you say you forgive, what do you really mean? I already told you what they meant — it was about them escaping the hell that they believe in, and then a lot of self-righteousness as well. But what does it mean really? Because will you sit down and eat with the person who took your child? Are you gonna advocate for a lesser sentence? And what does this mean? Obviously no.

So we're left with — all right, so when I don't forgive, it's the same way with me. We're done. If I say I don't forgive, that's irreparable. Okay. And that's different for me. Say I'm not gonna have any dealings with certain family members because they're just in different places — no, that's different. When I cut you off, you're done.

Now when I look at forgiveness, I look at me being the most important person in this equation. Okay? I have been offended. The level of that offense has me to a place where I want to do one or two things. One is definitely I'm done. But it may be a scenario where I have to put certain things in place in order to repay. There are times when that's necessary.

And I want to talk about that because the way I thought before was, no, that's wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. The idea was, someone comes and does something, and I am supposed to forgive them and then not feel good at all about the feeling of — first of all, separating from them, but actually needing to in certain situations make this thing a level playing field. I'm supposed to feel bad about that. So it's like a double whammy. I've already been offended to the degree that I cannot continue in relationship, and then I'm expected to forgive — not in a sense of we're gonna hang out again, but to clear my conscience, so to speak, of some judgment that will await me once again because I didn't do something for the person who has already offended me.

And so what I do now is — and I told my daughter this the other day, and I told her mother, my ex-wife, I told her that I told my daughter this. My daughter called me one day and said, dad, I'm upset. And she told me why she was upset. And I said, let me tell you something, child. I said, when you do whatever it is that you're gonna do — and I know you're gonna be safe, that's what I question — I said, make sure you send the message to whoever that was or is, that would clearly register with them, never to do such a thing. Not just to you, but to any human being again. You send the message. I said, and I support you. And she was like, oh my god, daddy, thank you. She had felt bad because that's how she felt.

Let me tell you something — if someone touches your niece or child, you do everything in your power to bring that person to justice, and then you ride all the way along. You do an impact statement. You drive it home and start a movement if you have to. But what you want to do is know that you did all you could do to put that joker either out of their misery or under the —

SHAY: Hmm.

SHAWN: Okay? Because this idea of forgiveness, in my opinion — when you look at the criminal justice system here, which I have a lot of experience with in our country, versus let's say somewhere like Japan — you'll find that officers there, when they have to go to a citizen's home to make an arrest or whatever the case may be, don't even wear guns on their waist. They are very orderly. One of the most quiet places. This blew my mind. My son lived six years in Okinawa, Japan.

SHAY: Okinawa?

SHAWN: Okinawa. And one of the most quiet places — at the subway. Now I'm from New York.

SHAY: Oh.

SHAWN: You know what it's, so, whoa, whoa, whoa. Quiet place. They are very orderly, and it works, and they understand that if I am caught breaking the law, there are true consequences to pay. I will not be slapped on the wrist, I won't be babied up.

One of the things that we do here in our country — and I believe I can dig into some criminal justice background — the influence of Christianity on the criminal justice system. When you think about the word penitentiary, for prison, it's from the word penitent — where you go to make penance, or repent. You go to prison.

SHAY: Yeah.

SHAWN: You didn't know that.

SHAY: I didn't know that.

SHAWN: Yes. And it was a place to go and repent from what you have done. Now with that being said, when you look at our criminal justice system, we are one of the only countries in the world — I'll leave it at one of the — where our death row inmates can write books, have access to the outside world through the internet and different freedoms. I had a cousin who's no longer alive, who was a lifetime criminal, and he would commit felony crime exclusively because he said the only thing that's missing for him in a federal prison is a recliner. That's how easy it is to do that time.

What I'm saying in a nutshell, with Christian influence and with this forgiveness mindset, when you look at our criminal justice system and you look at crime in our country compared to other countries who have single digit violent crime rates — single digits — one of the things that's strikingly different is how we deal with those who are in the wrong.

I don't know when we are gonna get out of this as far as our country's concerned. But in my opinion, if you don't fear the consequences of your actions, then, you know, what won't you do? And so that forgiveness concept, I think, has seeped into even the way we deal with bad people who should be treated as such. We get the politics and a lot of forgiveness involved. And you have people who do horrible things to children and go to jail and then say, oh, I met the Lord, now I write children's books. That don't fly with me. I don't care what book. No.

So when it comes to forgiveness, this is how I look at it now. I am my focus. And I will forgive. First, I will define it as letting go in my mind the offense that took place, to the degree that it no longer affects me. See, it's about me.

SHAY: Yeah.

SHAWN: If I know — cause I'm gonna think, is there anything that I need to do to feel better? I'm not into harming other people, so I'm not thinking crazy. But I talk to myself. Okay, what happened to you? What did you do about it? If it was one of the situations where I did nothing and it has passed, I do not need to carry that because I'm hurting myself. In those scenarios, what I do is I release myself from self-harm through those thoughts.

But as far as the person is concerned who did it to me — like with your scenario earlier — it doesn't matter. Forgiveness acts, I get it, but there is nothing else that we need to say. The answer is no. And this is how I practice it, because it took me a while to get to that place. But I was the nicest guy who became the doormat. You understand? I was the one who always took the higher road and promoted that you do such.

But now I have a balance, because there is a time. And then there is a time also — even as a believer, and people don't like to preach this one — we are taught through the scriptures that there is a time for war and there's a time for peace. There's a time to plant and there's a time to pluck up. There's a time for everything under the sun. So if that be the case, there is a time not —

SHAY: There's a time for if you knuck, I buck.

SHAWN: There go. And even within my own faith, Shay. That's right. I like that. Can't get no better than that. That's right. Knuck if you buck. Check this out. Even within my faith, the very foundation of it is also predicated on the fact that God will not — there's certain things he will not forgive. If you blaspheme, you have this certain offense — nope, I will not forgive it. And so yet humans who believe in this deity — they're not really thinking about it, but you are making yourself out to be better than your deity, because your deity even has limits. Whereas, I won't forgive that.

SHAY: Interesting.

SHAWN: Very interesting. And so if you believe that you ought to walk in the light of this being and behave as such, then this being has limits and you should also have limits. Because that is smart. That's self-preservation. Or people will just — how do we say it? We teach people how to treat us.

SHAY: Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering if you are willing to speak on the influence of whether it's Christianity or Black culture — or one in the same — that has, at least what I perceive as, like additional pressure for Black people to forgive.

Because I think about — I remember it was early 2020, or maybe sooner — where there was a sports fan in the stands that just walked up to this Black gentleman in the stands and punched him in the face. And then later on there's footage of them in the courtroom and they're hugging one another, because the Black man had pressure on him to forgive him. And I was just like, why are you forgiving this guy?

SHAWN: Listen, let me tell you something. Now this is a really deep conversation. You probably never heard it before, because I'm gonna tell you what that was about.

I can guess that the guy — even if he wasn't a practicing Christian — the Black guy who did the forgiveness thing and they were hugging, he definitely had that influence within his household.

When it comes to Black and white relationships and when it comes to forgiveness, one of the things that a lot of white people don't know about Black people is — and I'm starting to see it now because I'm seeing it on TikTok, you hear so many voices, so you're seeing this — but for the most part, what they don't know is that the average Black person actually loves white people. And watch what I'm about to say.

The relationship goes like this. And I was just talking about this with my ex-wife. My mother was on drugs at an early age. I was the only child. And I said, I didn't know how to communicate. Then I said, I was just held onto her. Said I love her and I need her to stop. And I wouldn't have let her go until she got help. But how I manifested it was through anger. But I really wanted to communicate, I'm just hurt. You get it?

So when it comes to Black and white relationships, I guarantee you — because I've experienced that as well — when you have individuals who truly want peace, and our history and the history of our ancestors, you cannot erase it. And it still permeates society today and influences us and affects us in ways that we don't talk about. But there is a desire to get along, to be together, to put things behind. There is a deep desire for that. And so that forgiveness aspect — here's the ugly side of it though. The ugly side of it, and we're still talking about Black and white relationships — the ugly side is, I don't know if you've ever seen Django, you got too much sauce —

SHAY: Oh yeah.

SHAWN: Okay, alright. When Leonardo DiCaprio's character was shot and Samuel Jackson was losing his mind — my grandpa. The ugly side is there is within our minds, and it goes all the way back to slavery, white superiority that exists in the mind of many Black people, regardless of how you present. You're white, and there's a part in the brain that feels that you have to be pleased somehow by us. And so whether or not we'll change certain things about us to make you feel comfortable —

SHAY: Oh, like code-switching?

SHAWN: About how — yeah. You hear things about how Black people will talk one way with white folk, but then when together they talk different. That's true. And we've learned that over time, but that was by force. Assimilation required us to totally let go of anything we used to do and to adopt what we were told.

And the man who forgave and hugged — once again, it is so deep ingrained within him to do that. And then when you add the religiosity to the picture, it really gets big, because now it's gonna please your Heavenly Father. And so you're this example. Again, let's go into that self-righteousness that we won't talk about, but you're out there, and you'll be able to go to church and say, I forgave them.

It's called testimony service. What they call in the Black church is when you talk about something God has done for you. So a lot of times they do these acts of forgiveness or whatever in front of people, so that they can go back to the congregation and say, look what I've done. So it's still that — and you need to do the same. More forgiveness. More forgiveness.

But you gotta understand, if you go all the way back to where we were slaves and only certain portions of the Bible were preached to us — like, slaves obey your masters — another thing that was preached to us a whole lot was forgiveness. It makes all the sense in the world. Why do you think that the slave masters would want you to forgive? At some point this may not be the case, and we don't want you coming after us. Yes. You need to forgive because you want your God to forgive you.

SHAY: Oh, wow.

SHAWN: Yeah. It gets really deep. And then you have children and you teach them the same thing, generation after generation. And here we are in 2025, and you can shoot someone's child and they'll get on television and say, I forgive you. That's learned behavior.

SHAY: Wow. This is blowing my mind. Okay. Because I can't imagine being a Black person in this country and having to practice forgiveness on almost like a moment to moment basis, every day after day, because of the racial microaggressions that you endure, or just constantly being berated by the trauma of what's going on, or not having received reparations —

SHAWN: And that's why I'm so happy about organizations like the AHA, because we need voices like yours, voices of reason. When we stand on reason and compassionate empathy, it is nothing we can't do.

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SHAWN: There are certain things — like when he said the reparations thing. What people who are against that don't understand, and a lot of people don't know this, white and Black — when the Emancipation Proclamation took place, and then it was an issue that the South went to war and all that stuff. After all that was done and they could no longer have slaves, they received reparations, because we were considered property.

That is heavy. You understand? It was written in the Constitution. We were only a certain percentage of a white male. We had to be able to be counted as numbers for political reasons. But then in order to do that, we had to be partially human to be counted in the numbers, but we still had to be property at the same time. So we'll make them partially human, partially property. But really fully property, partially human. Okay.

And so they got reparations. So that's something that we don't talk about, because that's a slap in the face to argue against the descendants of those who are still alive and say, no, you don't deserve any type of recompense for what your ancestors went through, and the repercussions of it even till today, the things that we have to deal with. Systemic racism and stuff — what we deal with. To say no, you won't even consider that. While hiding the fact that our federal government made sure they gave those former slave owners monies and land.

SHAY: For their inconvenience.

SHAWN: So now these days, when you think about the process of what you were describing as how you feel forgiveness these days — are you conscious that if you let something go, it is forgiveness? Is that one in the same for you, or is it two different things?

Forgiveness and forgetting about it seem different, and I'll have to think about that. But once again, I gotta go back to defining forgiveness. And forgiveness for me — it means that we can — ah, here it goes.

Forgiveness to me requires some type of reconciliation where the other person who offended me is relieved of some type of guilt or something. Somehow or another, they're benefiting from me forgiving. That part right there is why I used to get stuck a lot and would forgive people for things I should not have, because it only opened them up to continue with the behavior. Keep that in mind.

Because I had a problem with thinking about — I'll tell a perfect example. You break up with someone and you know you did the right thing. They didn't value you. You know you're better than that. You voiced what it was that you needed in that relationship and they gaslit you. They did the whole whatever, and you got out. I was that person who, I knew I made the right decision, but here I am with my soft heart thinking about how hurt they may be cause I really did leave. And I'm thinking, and I'll start thinking about the good times and the —

If you have been offended and you can articulate it and you know you've been wronged, okay, without a doubt — do not think about the good times at all. If you feel any ounce of, oh no, think about what they did. You go right to it. Don't be scared. You go to it. Because what that's going to do is gonna build up a resistance within yourself to the place where, when you start getting these feelings of, oh, they wronged me blatantly, I am to be passive and be something that — no, no, no, no. What it does, it changes you.

Let me tell you something funny. When I was married, my ex-wife — we would go through a drive-through and I would ask for my burger with no mustard and they would give my burger and all that good stuff. We'd pull off and like clockwork, I'll bite it and say, there's mustard on this burger. And she'll say, you're not gonna take it back? And I'd be like, oh no man, I'll just eat it. She would always say, if it was me, I would've took it back. And then one day it happened again and she said, uh-uh, go back. And we went back.

I was the quiet husband, she was the rowdy one. So we pulled back up and she said, he asked that you not put mustard on his burger. And so I'm looking at her like, dang. I said, don't. He said, no don't apologize. I was gonna say please forgive her. But guess what happens? I go through a drive-through now and I ask for something in particular — oh yeah, no. I won't even drive off until I look through everything. And if you didn't give me what I said, I'm not gonna be nasty with you or anything. I'm gonna give it right back. If my coffee is not hot, I'm giving it back.

There's no more of — see, it's a freedom. When there's this forgiveness thing and you're constantly being violated, but yet you have to take the higher road. They go low, we go high. It seems that — and I'm not — no, no, Shay. What I'm saying is, let's talk about that, because there are scenarios where when someone goes low, you better go lower. Okay. There are levels to this stuff. Certain people do things and there's levels to it. There's certain people who need to be exposed. You know what I'm saying?

So what I tell folk now is I stay around, I try to familiarize myself with my tribe, be around those of like mind, and tell folk, hey, I really don't have any issues because I don't do a lot of people. I love my life. I'm busy. I have great kids. I love what I do as far as social media is concerned. And so I don't have those issues. But my message is, don't mess with people. You don't know who you're messing with. You don't know where they are in life, and people are fed up.

SHAY: So before I let you go, you and I have spoken recently about your journey with forgiveness from your kids around your deconstructing from Christianity.

SHAWN: I didn't understand the impact that coming out of the church after being there so long would have on all my children. And so to this day, I speak with them every day.

One of my children in particular, my second oldest daughter, revealed to me later on in life that around high school she was having problems making friends. And let me explain. So when we were in church — like I said, I was really devout. I didn't allow my children to spend the night out. No one could spend the night at our house, only if it was the children from the church. It was cultish, really cultish. And all of their friends and quote unquote family was church members. The church. So when we left the church, I didn't think about the kids. That's like all of their friends, everything that they can remember — their interactions, their laughs, their cries, everything. That's their family in their mind. Gone.

SHAY: Oh.

SHAWN: So my daughter told me as a grown woman now, with a child — and I didn't notice. She said she's been getting therapy. And I was like, well great, you know, we're big on therapy. We like that. But she explained that she didn't know that she needed therapy. But it was really hard from high school on making friends, because all she knew, she told me, all I knew was like the church. I didn't know how. And these kids were different — they were cursing and drinking and da da da. They were just being kids. And they were sheltered.

I did find out that they did drink. They told me. I found out almost 20 years later. I got some funny stories, and I'm gonna be doing interviews with my kids — you're gonna love that — one at a time, because you have to. People have to hear them.

But anyway, I felt that when I started to deconstruct and fully deconverted — I love the brain because it began to change. I look back and I thought of the type of father that I was, and I don't beat myself up about it. I'm not ashamed at all. I thought that what I was doing was right because the Bible says so. But becoming free from indoctrination, I look back and I apologize to all of my kids for the smallest of things. Anything that can come to mind. First of all, how stern I was, how I didn't trust them enough, with their beautiful growing brains, to figure life out. But I had to hold them by these collars.

Even though me myself, growing up in New York City, we would wake up in the morning and eat our cereal, wash up, and go outside and we wouldn't come back until the lights came on outside. And I was 10 years old. Okay? So the freedom that we had. And here I am today — parents, we try to shelter them.

And so I apologized for that. And then also it gave them the opportunity to see that — cause I was really, you would've liked me then because I think I've always been a likable person, but you would not have liked my stance. For example, my stance on the LGBTQ. My children, my ex-wife, knew it. If I had found that any one of my children were part of that community, they would never have access to their dad again. Just imagine that. How close I am with my kids — that was my mindset.

And so that's one of the reasons why I tell the story when it comes to forgiveness as a parent. When your children know that you're human just like them, when they know that you made some mistakes just like them, there's a great thing that happens. Cause a lot of parents think they'll lose respect if they're transparent.

SHAY: Yeah.

SHAWN: But a great thing can happen. Sometimes they look at us as superheroes. And when you bring religion into the picture, of course we can do no wrong. We can't understand them. We cannot possibly relate. When I started to, how should I say, at least have sit-downs and socialize with my boys in particular on a different type of level — I am hanging with the fellas right now, we're talking as men. At that point in time, that is when I began to have the best relationship with my kids ever. It is when their dad became human and told some stories about things that I did, so they could relate and say, oh my goodness. All right, dad, let me tell you what I did. And they started telling me stuff I would have never known unless I became human.

As a former believer, looking at forgiveness and then my children and how it affected them leaving out of the church — and that was just one of my children. She's doing better today. But the thing is, she's still the sweetest girl in the world. But a lot of that was just finding out how to walk again, how to socially interact again. When everything was so easy — bless the Lord, and all of the verbiage and the cliches. It's easy. So now you get out here in the world where people are like, what did you say? Don't hear about that. I don't want to hear nothing about that. And they're different. It's like almost a culture shock, cause they were sheltered.

SHAY: Yeah.

SHAWN: I was the police, so I was in school with them. I was the high school resource officer while my kids were in school. So I was bouncing through schools, and they were protected constantly.

SHAY: There you go. Helicopter.

SHAWN: It's — we can learn so much from not doing that.

SHAY: If —

SHAWN: We can, and we don't know that we're doing it. We don't mean to do it. You just want to protect. But man, there's magic when you allow them to think for themselves and give them that space. Now, you know, you don't want them to fall on their face, but at the same time, allow them. That's what I apologized about just last night concerning — I just told my sons, I said, I want to apologize for doing that helicopter thing. I said, because I feel that you guys should know more than what you know about life right now. And I'm honest — there's more that they should know. But I was just busy keeping them in church. That was what was most important to me. When they should have been learning how to change oil, change the brake pads, da da da da — that's what they need to be learning. Forget all that other stuff.

But yeah, it just feels good to be free. And so that's how I look at forgiveness. I'm not interested in any type of relief for the individuals or circumstance that offended me. I am concerned with me and how I move on from the said hurt or whatever. And so there's no more of — I have already taken the weight of the offense. And now I'm expected to carry the weight in a form of forgiving you to relieve you from guilt. So I'm actually extending you this olive branch. I'm helping you. And if you want to do that, that's on you. Let's say that. And if that's what you want to do, that's fine. But let's normalize saying —

Goodbye. You understand? And depending on what it is, I'm gonna get you back — trust and believe. And I might not say it, because I know how evidence works. So I'm not gonna tell you, but I'm gonna get you back. Depending on what it is, watch your —

SHAY: Yeah. I know how evidence works, so I'm not gonna tell you, but I'm gonna get you back.

SHAWN: I want to ask you — have you encountered having to forgive yourself for anything?

SHAY: Oh my goodness. Wow, you are so good. We can't close without that one. That is the best.

SHAWN: Now, when you want to talk about forgiving yourself — why I'm talking about on the smallest level. Here's an example we often understand. I was supposed to work out today. Oh, I missed it. I ain't supposed to eat that. Oh, I ate anyway. Next thing you know, one day turns into a week. A week turns into a month. And then now I don't want to step on the scale. I don't want to look at the gym. I'm feeling alright. You gonna get yourself together? And it's like, oh, that voice in your head — Shawn, you said that last time, you da da da — you going back and forth. And I had to stop beating myself up, and then I had to start forgiving myself for doing.

There's been times I've been sincere, but sincerely wrong. And then there's an outcome. But I was sincere, and I carried that. And it's very important how we talk to ourselves, because I used to talk bad to myself like I committed a crime. Like I would straight call myself stupid. You're stupid. That was stupid. You know better than that. Literally saying it out loud.

All of that has changed. Oh no, see, all of this goes hand in hand. This forgiveness — we need to extend it to ourselves. There you go. That's the secret. No, no, no, no, no. Uh-uh. If you want to extend it outward after you've already been bruised, that's on you. But it goes like this — forgiving me. That was magic. Because that's where true freedom, I think, I started to experience in my mind. Because I let it go. I forgave me.

But here's the thing. I didn't know that I was walking around in unforgiveness for myself. That's the thing. You don't even know it until you let it go. And it's like, oh, the weight. You feel the weight come off. Oh my goodness. I forgave me. And see, that's when you get even doper, right? Because now I love people. Like, that's doing the work. Because the friends and the relationships that you develop following — oh my goodness, quality people. I have the best relationships with people I've never even seen face to face yet. And I'm cool with it, because I rather authenticity, even if it's virtual, than fakeness in my face. You get what I'm saying?

SHAY: Oh yes.

SHAWN: So forgiving myself. Forgiving myself. Oh, that is — that's what we need. We need to preach more forgiving of self. Okay. Because who — if I don't love me, if I don't forgive me, there you go. What are we doing forgiving people when we don't even forgive ourselves? Oh no, we got it backwards. But yes, that is magic. That's magic. Forgiving yourself.

SHAY: Shawn, thank you so much for having this conversation with me.

SHAWN: You are welcome.