SHAY:

Welcome to How to Humanist. It is Shay Leonia, your host on behalf of the American Humanist Association. If you’re new to this podcast, welcome. So glad that you’re here. We have a whole boatload of episodes for you to get caught up on after this one, of course.

We started this podcast with the intention of me getting to learn about humanism. And I really wanna emphasize, I was able to tell our guest this at the end of our conversation, but when I first came on board at the start of last year with the American Humanist Association as their communications manager, one of the first people that I was told to have on my radar was Hemant Mehta of The Friendly Atheist.

And so to have him as the guest on today’s episode is just so glorious for me. He’s one of these people that, like, I was scared shitless, because he’s so... Oh my gosh, the exports that this guy’s able to do. Like, he’s putting out so much content, but we’re gonna talk about all of that.

But he’s also been such a strong advocate for other people to start creating content of their own, especially if they have stories of deconstruction, or anything that has led you to humanism. Just getting your message out there. I just really appreciate how much advocacy Hemant has done for that, because without him, we wouldn’t have AHA’s Creator Program.

And so I have the great honor and pleasure of running our Creator Program, which is a program that we started that invests in different influencers with people that are just living humanist values, and their audience might have never heard of humanism. I’ve had the chance of working with just some really, really wonderful creators. I just am so grateful to Hemant for this.

If you’re not familiar with his work, he’s the founder and editor of friendlyatheist.com, a YouTube creator, and a co-host of The Friendly Atheist podcast, which is an amazing podcast, by the way. Make sure you go listen. He’s a former national board-certified math teacher. He’s the author of I Sold My Soul on eBay and The Young Atheist’s Survival Guide, a New York Times crossword constructor, and a Jeopardy! champion.

I mean, what else do you need from this guy’s background? Hemant has done it all, truly, and he’s here to advocate for you to do the same. Or to just do one thing, and that’s get your story out there. So without further ado, here’s Hemant Mehta.

SHAY:

How are you even putting out so much content? I’m fascinated.

HEMANT:

The short answer to your question is I spend the bulk of my mornings, after I drop off my kids and stuff, some time to just write an article for the next day. So that’s what I’m spending most of the morning doing. You understand this, so I’m trying to explain. I’m like, I don’t have to dumb it down for you.

I’ll write an article, let’s say, and at the same time, I put together, what’s the tweet that’s gonna go out? What’s the TikTok version of the script that’s gonna go out? And all that happens after I’m done writing the article. That’s just part of it now.

Then I’m kinda done with that. The next morning I’ll film the TikTok video in the morning before I take the kids to school. Doesn’t take long, I’m in that flow.

I only film all of my YouTube stuff, like, Thursday night is the night I film all the videos. I have a live stream tonight. It’ll go for a while, like two hours that’s carved out, and I’ll just chop that up into seven videos, and those’ll go up next week. So I’m only doing YouTube like once a week, but content is there. Podcast is also, I’ll do it once a week, and it’ll go out.

And I finally, like, a couple months ago, hired some help with Facebook and thumbnails and stuff like that, ’cause I’ve never had anyone working with me before on that. And it’s like, okay, if you could take care of Facebook, because who knew Facebook pays a lot for stuff? They’re desperate.

SHAY:

Yeah, I haven’t heard that.

HEMANT:

They’re desperate.

SHAY:

I didn’t know that they’re paying. The reason why I wanted to ask you about your workflow is because you’re such an advocate for people to start speaking up about us having more voices in this space.

So I feel like if there are people that are out there anything like me, they might just have very nervous sphincters about getting started, and might not even know where to start, or think that they don’t have the time, or even the trolls, like having to brace themselves for people saying mean things online. That’s chased me away from starting a YouTube channel many a time. So how did you get to this point where you’ve been doing this for so long now?

HEMANT:

Yeah, the so long thing is just, part of it’s muscle memory. It’s all I know how to do at this point. But to get to your question there, I was telling you before we started, it’s been hard for me to adjust, in the sense that technology and the sites are always changing. So I always considered myself a blogger.

But blogging has gone out of style in a sense, so then you adjust and you go to YouTube, which I’ve been doing for a while. And then YouTube, it’s still popular, but it’s not where people find you anymore, so you gotta be good on TikTok and all that stuff. And that was one I hesitated on, ’cause I’m like, “Ugh, that doesn’t feel...” I’ve seen videos on there. I use it. It’s not my style, but then you gotta adjust.

[SHAY interjects: As somebody who has worked as a social media manager in a freelance capacity, nonprofit capacity, I keep running into the same objection, which is, “Oh, TikTok is just a dancing platform.” That’s not what Hemant’s saying right now. But there are plenty of you, I’m sure, that are listening to him talk about this right now that are thinking it’s just a young kid’s dancing platform.

It’s not. Even in this post-Larry Ellison purchase world, schmuck-hole, it has still got such a powerful algorithm that very quickly learns what you like and what you will engage with.

So for me, for instance, I will get to see everything from Hemant’s content pop up on there. I will see comedic stuff pop up in there. I will see stuff from legal experts. I’ll also get to see stuff like home inspections gone awry, or rescue dogs that need adopting. Like, I see it all, and it’s pretty frightening how fast TikTok learned what I like. So get on there and engage with the things that you actually like.

Which, might I suggest you follow the American Humanist Association’s TikTok at HumanistTok, H-U-M-A-N-I-S-T-T-O-K.]

HEMANT:

Part of it is just getting used to the fact that all of this stuff changes. I know it’s gonna suck at first, and then you just try to constantly improve it as you go along. In terms of vertical videos, TikToks, Reels and stuff, I’m not saying I’m good at it, but one of the things is I can ask younger people for advice on that stuff in a way that I really can’t when it comes to blogging or YouTube or anything like that.

But I think the biggest thing is it’s never gonna be perfect in terms of how you want it to look or sound or feel, but you put it out there because people are gonna hear that message somehow. That’s kinda how the algorithms work, especially if you are new, ’cause they wanna push you out so you make more stuff.

You could go through my YouTube archives, and the videos that are the earliest ones I posted probably look like crap. I would never watch them again, because it makes me cringe. Even the livestreams that I do where I talk about what’s in the news, if you look at the earliest versions of that, I am in a random bedroom in my house with no real good lighting and not a great mic, but I’m just trying to do it.

And then hopefully a month later it looks a little better than it did the previous month, and so on. I am just constantly trying to change up what I’m doing so it doesn’t get stale.

And along the way you figure out, wow, I was happy with how that went, but the microphone wasn’t good. So let’s fix that up if I can. Or the background looks weird. Why is this wall totally red? Wouldn’t it look nice with a plant? I should get a plant. Something like that. And you just adjust over time.

I’m sure, Shay, you do this too. You watch other people who make this sort of stuff, and I’m like, damn, their lighting looks amazing, or their background looks great. I’m thinking of, like, Drew McCoy, Genetically Modified Skeptic.

SHAY:

Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh, yeah.

HEMANT:

He has this beautifully lit area, that dungeon that he’s in, and I love how it looks. And then it’s like, hey Drew, what are you using? Because I’m jealous. That’s literally what I’ve been doing whenever I’ve tried to adapt to something else.

And then you just try to get used to what’s the best way to reach as many people as possible, because we’re in the business of communication, and you want this message to reach people.

Listen, if I was a teenager right now, and was naturally adept at TikTok or something like that, I would be making a very different type of video that’s way more compelling, in my opinion. But whatever. I know my lane, and I will try to make stuff that works for me and doesn’t make me feel awkward. And you adjust and you keep doing it.

But it’s always exciting when you discover new voices. One of the things the AHA did a while back is you guys started investing in helping out creators and amplifying their voices. And what I found really remarkable about that is so many of the people you were working with, I’m like, “I have no clue who they are,” which is amazing. Wow, how did you find these people? Because they’re great to watch, and I love watching their stuff.

SHAY:

Yeah. You are, for people that don’t realize and who weren’t in the room when it happened, you are the catalyst behind American Humanist Association’s Creator Program.

HEMANT:

Sure.

SHAY:

So thank you so much for that. I mean, this is... Because I’ve had, like, the best time working with this creator program.

[SHAY interjects: A few things to go over real quick. The Creator Program. If you are listening to this and you are a content creator that is making content for a humanist audience, please reach out by going to the form at americanhumanist.org/creatorapply. Again, that’s /creatorapply. I want you to fill out the form that’s there, and I go over all of the submissions.

Now, we can’t work with absolutely everyone, but I would be happy to reach out and talk to you about, “Okay, here’s what we need in order to be able to work with you in the future,” et cetera, et cetera. That’s number one.

Number two, if you are not a content creator and you are just a fan of certain people’s content, and you don’t necessarily think that they are on my radar, please reach out to us at [EMAIL]. I would love to hear from you about who you’re watching. So that’s number two.

And number three, I wanna shout out the incredible creators that we’ve worked with. Just to name a few, there is Drew McCoy from the Genetically Modified Skeptic. There is the Antibot, Taylor, we absolutely adore you. Cam James, we are about to start working with Cam James. Barrett Pall, Monte Mader, Matt Bernstein, oh my gosh, Faith Litchfield, Shawn Towers, oh my gosh, there’s so many. Oh, Alyssa Grenfell. Kevin Crow, formerly known as Jesus Unfollower.

There’s just... I’ve just had the greatest pleasure of working with so many different creators, and we are so looking forward to who we will be working with in the future.]

HEMANT:

The pitch that I was trying to get people to understand is there are not a lot of open humanists, atheists who are able to do this sort of stuff full-time. Whereas if you were a Christian, or you were a conservative political person, there are funders and there are funds you could tap into to be able to get good equipment, make good videos, all that stuff. We don’t have that on our side of the fence.

And so my pitch to donors was basically, as much as I would love for there to be, like, another God Delusion-esque revival, people aren’t reading books. If you’re looking for who are the people who are credible and thoughtful and can persuade people to consider non-religiosity, it’s probably the people who are really good at communicating on podcasts, on TikTok, on YouTube, places like that.

And yet, I have seen this a lot, maybe you have too, which is some people make some fascinating content, and then they’ll do it for like a month, and then they disappear off the face of the earth because they’re not making money off of it.

SHAY:

Yeah.

HEMANT:

It’s a fun little hobby. And it’s like, what would you... I’m making up this number entirely, but if you gave some of those people who are really good at it, like, $1,000 a month, and said, “You get the equipment you need. Keep doing what you’re doing. Make sure you hit whatever the thresholds are so you can get paid by the platforms, but we like what you’re making, and we want to invest in you without telling you what to make. We like you. Keep doing this, ’cause you’re a good voice.”

And if you were able to do that, you could find... ’Cause what was the problem with the New Atheism, among many things? It’s there was always one type of voice that was always being promoted and published, and it’s usually an older white male. And, like, no offense to them, but you want a more diverse group of people being represented, ’cause that is what humanism is, right?

And so what I’ve found so compelling with what the AHA has done with that project is you are finding these different voices, and as someone who lives inside this atheist bubble, I’m like, “I don’t know who those people are. That’s amazing. Let me go check out who they are, what they’re talking about,” and they’re amazing.

And it’s like, I’m so happy to see that they are being amplified, and I hope that they can do this, if not full-time, then at least they know, okay, there is a... Reward is the wrong word for it, but there are people who appreciate this and want to watch it, and they’re supporting me and my voice, which we need more of.

SHAY:

Yeah. Yeah. And some of those people did not get our attention by waiting to have the right equipment and whatnot, and waiting to have that aesthetic over the message that they wanted to convey.

I’m gonna use Faith Litchfield as an example, because I’m just bewildered by her. She’s just so wonderful. For anyone listening, she was a guest on the podcast, but she also recently spoke at our conference. She is in the Creator Program, and her message is all about maintaining play and seeing magic all around us, without needing to believe in a deity to believe in the magic. That is the fact that we even exist to begin with.

So she’s somebody that her videos are very simple. She just has a whiteboard in her apartment, and she’s just drawing things and talking about spaceships. And it’s just wonderful.

And I think, as somebody who is also just very entranced with all of the people that are able to do all of the extensive editing and whatnot, I’ve also found that in today’s day and age, if you are creating more barriers to creation, then you’re not gonna be doing yourself any favors.

And sometimes when you get the big shiny microphone and the big lighting setup, you’re sitting there, and now you’re too intimidated to use it, ’cause you never started with the crap gear to start with.

HEMANT:

Absolutely. And the thing is, it’s not that they need bells and whistles, because you’re right, just a simplified thing is sometimes all you need. Some of the people I watch on TikTok sometimes are literally, you feel like they’re just taking a walk, and they just happen to turn on their phone while they’re walking, ’cause they have thoughts. They wanna get out. And whatever. There’s no mic. There’s no anything. But damn, they’re compelling.

And again, it goes back to how do we make sure your voice keeps getting heard? Because for a lot of people, it’s not that they have to make a lot of money on these platforms. That’s a really hard thing to do. But it would be nice if they knew this was more than just a time suck. That there was, like, “Oh, I can make beer money off of this.” There are people who are willing to say, “Keep doing what you’re doing.”

And not everyone’s gonna be MrBeast when they do this stuff. Having 1,000 voices who reach different audiences in their own ways is almost more important.

SHAY:

Yeah, and I’m so glad that I’m speaking to you about this, because one of the things that worried me in the beginning of the Creator Program was, “Oh my gosh, am I gonna just find a bunch of angry atheists?” And of course, there’s you, the Friendly Atheist, which is the brand, but also how you live your day-to-day life is just being this friendly humanist to people.

But I’m wondering, there’s such an overwhelming amount of news that you come across. What are some other ideas that people can come up with on things to speak about, except for, just as an example, how stupid people are to believe in God, et cetera, all that kind of stuff?

[SHAY interjects: I’m not trying to say that all atheists are making that type of content, but what I do see that rises to the top is the most sensationalist content, which is a lot of debating and a lot of controversy and a lot of clickbaity titles and things like that. And a lot of the times those can be like that, you know?]

HEMANT:

So first of all, when it comes to just commenting on news stories, I found that to be just a never-ending well of information. So there’s never any shortage of things to comment on. But also, everyone has their own background that they can mine for stories and commentary.

I don’t know if you ever go to Reddit and you use it. There is an atheism subreddit that has all the stereotypes we have come to associate with Reddit atheism. However, on that page, there is like a drop-down menu for ex-blanks. And you can see, oh, they’re linking to other pages for, like, what are the subreddits for ex-Mormons, ex-Jehovah’s Witnesses, ex-whatever.

I find those to be fascinating because, one, they’re smaller, and they’re almost talking in a secret language, because they’re commenting on things they understand that the rest of us don’t.

SHAY:

Yeah.

HEMANT:

And they have their own shorthand. I’m thinking, I think it’s Jehovah’s Witnesses use PIMO, and it’s, “I’m physically in, but mentally out.” It’s fascinating stuff.

SHAY:

Oh.

HEMANT:

I’m like, oh, that concept could totally apply everywhere. But the thing about it is, wow, I would never have known about that world if I didn’t try to step into it.

And the point being, what do you talk about if you just want to get out there? Everyone has their religious backstory, especially if you’re in our world of non-theism. You have the experiences you grew up with. You have stuff that happened that you know really well.

And even if you’re a Christian who went to an evangelical church, and your story feels like other people have had that experience, a lot of them have, don’t worry. If you tell it in your way, and you use your personality, I promise you, it always connects with somebody.

Because you think you’re making a video that no one’s gonna watch, ’cause you may not have a platform, and I promise you, 100% of the time, people hear it back, and someone comments, and they’re like, “Thank you for saying that. I wish someone would say that.”

SHAY:

Yeah.

HEMANT:

It happens every time.

SHAY:

Yeah. And I can’t pass up the opportunity to talk about the fact that you were raised in the Jain religion?

HEMANT:

Yeah.

SHAY:

You’re the first person I’ve ever met raised with this religion. Please tell me a little bit more, ’cause I know nothing.

HEMANT:

Sure. The big thing about it is it’s almost more philosophical than it is religious. Most Jains you’re gonna meet, they don’t eat meat, ethically speaking. They feel like it’s violence if you’re killing animals. They believe in non-violence. Even mentally, you’re not supposed to have impure thoughts.

All of that actually sounds pretty damn good, but they also believe in fasting, karma, reincarnation, things like that. This is what I started questioning at first when I was, whatever, in my early teens, and I think I just made that jump from, “I don’t think my religion is right about this stuff,” to, “I don’t think religion is right about this stuff.”

And what makes that unusual is I went from Jainism to atheism. I only found out later that Jains don’t actually believe in a creator god.

SHAY:

Really?

HEMANT:

Yeah. I always spoke to people in the Jain community who pray to God. They pray all the time. We talk about prophets of sorts, and so I grew up believing in God. My parents believe in God. And it was only later, academically speaking, where they’re like, “Jains don’t believe in a god.” I’m like... There’s a disconnect between the academic version of Jainism and the way it’s practiced in real life.

SHAY:

Wow.

HEMANT:

Or I just never got the philosophical, academic version of it when I went to temple. But the thing about it is I felt like I didn’t know enough about Jainism when I was younger to offer any meaningful commentary on it. And even if I did, who the hell cares? ’Cause, like you said, no one knows what Jainism is.

And so even when I started doing stuff online, it was less about me and more about what’s going on in the news. And even if I was ever talking about my own past, I almost shied away from talking about Jainism, ’cause I don’t think people have enough familiarity with it that any commentary I offered was gonna be useful.

SHAY:

That’s so interesting. So then you naturally moved into the news space, but you’re also such a jack of all trades...

HEMANT:

Try to be.

SHAY:

...doing the New York Times crosswords and the Jeopardy! episodes, and all of this kind of... It just makes sense that you would just be able to grasp at all of these different things that are happening in the media. How are you able to filter the stories that are, at their root, going to come back to religion and things that atheists care about in your audience?

HEMANT:

Oh, man. So much of what’s happening in the news right now, it feels, has a connection to religion, whether you like it or not. I feel like I’ve tried to convince people who are more political that the stuff they’re talking about is actually a story about religion. I wish we had more religion reporters, because everything is religion.

But I found one thing that is helpful is I may not know in depth a lot of areas, but I really do wanna be knowledgeable. Mile wide and an inch deep is actually a great place to be, ’cause you could fit in a lot of conversations and know what’s going on in the culture.

I actually think that’s one of the things a lot of people don’t have anymore, which is a broader awareness of culture. That if you make references to old TV shows or random books that you don’t necessarily read, a lot of people don’t know what you’re talking about, and I wish there was more of that.

[SHAY interjects: What I will never forget is when I was in middle school, and we had to do current events presentations in front of the class. And there was one week where I remember my teacher telling all of us, “Okay, no more stories allowed about Elián González.” Like, that’s how in sync everyone was. This was long before the term trending was a thing. This was pre-social media days. God, I sound ancient.

But I can’t imagine if, like, the OJ Simpson car chase, which was one of the most viewed things ever in media history around the world, if that happened today, if people would even give a shit. Because back then we were all locked into watching it. And it was the same with Elián González. By the way, not trying to make light of OJ Simpson. No. But if you were there, you remember watching it on TV.]

HEMANT:

I don’t even know where I’m going with this rant.

SHAY:

Wait, can I... I gotta pause you on that rant so that I can vent real quick.

HEMANT:

Yes.

SHAY:

So Fish Stark, my boss, I was in a meeting with him, and he brought up how he wasn’t allowed to watch certain TV shows. And then I said, “Oh yeah, when I was growing up, it was nothing but Phil Donahue on TV.” And he said, “Who’s that?” And I damn near shit myself. So yes. So I don’t know what my point is on that, but I just need to out him.

HEMANT:

I mean, this is the thing. There’s a book I use. I coach public speaking at a high school nearby, and one of the things that comes up so often is the fact that maybe when we were younger, there was more cultural literacy, because everyone watched the same shows. Everyone listened to the same music. For better and for worse, you don’t have that anymore.

SHAY:

Yeah.

HEMANT:

But it makes it really hard to find starting points. And you mentioned Jeopardy!. One of the things they tell you if you are trying to get on the show is they’re not looking for PhDs who are experts in anything. They’re looking for people who just have broad awareness.

And the people who have done well on that show will be the first to tell you, if you’re studying for a show where you don’t know what they’re gonna ask you, go read children’s books about the areas you feel you don’t know anything about.

SHAY:

Wow.

HEMANT:

Because you don’t need expertise in anything, but you need to know, oh, Jupiter is a gassy planet. You know what I mean? Those are basic things, but if you don’t know anything about astronomy, that’s the stuff you might wanna know.

When it comes to what topics to cover, I spend my mornings just taking in all this information, what’s in the news. My Twitter feed is so curated...

SHAY:

Oh, gosh.

HEMANT:

...because those are people who give me information. And then it’s a question of, where can I add value? What can I explore a little more in depth?

In a way where I’m like, here’s a story about maybe a bill that’s being considered in some legislature, but there’s an element of it that I think, oh, non-religious people are gonna wanna know about this. And maybe some local news site has covered it, but maybe they haven’t.

One example of this that came up recently is there was a candidate for public office who is also a pastor, and the sermons that she has given were being taken offline, but someone has saved them. And trying to mine that material and figure out, what has she said in these sermons that she is so afraid of getting out, could be fascinating.

SHAY:

Yeah.

HEMANT:

And trying to get to the bottom of that is such a fun little game.

SHAY:

Wow.

HEMANT:

I mean, when you get to go down those rabbit holes and try to figure out, what are these things, as someone with a little bit of time, because I do this full-time, if I can get to the bottom of it, or if I could reach out to somebody who may have knowledge about some of this stuff, what could I learn?

And that’s the joy of what I get to do, which is trying to figure out what would atheists care about. Because it is not, let’s just trash God. Let’s talk about why God is silly and ridiculous. I don’t actually think you need me for that. You can get that in a lot of spaces.

But if there is a story happening... I mean, here’s one I did not have time to get to. If you ever watch college football, they did ESPN’s College GameDay at Brigham Young University recently, which is fine. They never go there, but they went there because their team is doing really well. And one of the commentators on that show brought up religion in a way that angered a lot of people, but he also felt it was relevant.

And it’s, oh, if I have time, I wanna get into why is this a big deal, and stuff like that. So there’s so many stories out there, but you have to tap into all those areas to know what the possible controversies may be.

SHAY:

Yeah, you’re really digging into every genre. If I can just spare another millennial reference, I’m picturing you like Johnny 5 from Short Circuit, just being like, “More input,” in your mornings.

HEMANT:

Yeah. It’s so much, and it can be overwhelming, and then it’s a game of triage, which is, you don’t need me if there is a controversy that everyone’s already talking about. I don’t necessarily need to chime in, ’cause you already know this stuff. But I always try to figure out, is there any place there where I might be able to add some value to the people who like reading me or listening to me?

SHAY:

And by the way, I absolutely adore your podcast. You and Jessica are just so entertaining to listen to.

HEMANT:

Aw, thank you.

SHAY:

And thank you, by the way. I heard you shout us out on the recent episode, talking about this AI story that’s picking up steam. If you wanna share with our audience who might not be aware.

HEMANT:

Yeah. Usually when I think of people asking for religious exemptions from the law, or at their workplace, I’m always thinking, like, someone doesn’t wanna get vaccinated, someone doesn’t wanna use a colleague’s pronouns. It’s always in a discriminatory way.

SHAY:

Yeah.

HEMANT:

And the story that happened with the American Humanist Association is that a man who works at a university felt like AI was encroaching into his workspace. While he’s not forced to use ChatGPT for stuff, he’s like, “It’s coming,” and they’re fine with it, and he didn’t wanna do that.

And he asked the AHA if they could help him out with this, and they were able to make a compelling argument for why, as a humanist who values creativity and the use of our minds and conscience, “I don’t wanna outsource that to a computer. So I wanna be able to not use AI, and also not get in trouble for not using AI.”

And the university basically looked at that argument and said, “Yeah, as long as you’re getting your work done, we’re never gonna get you in trouble for not using it, so we grant you a religious exemption to using AI for your work.”

And the cool thing about that is not just that he got the exemption, but that’s an exemption that doesn’t harm anybody else. He’s not stopping his colleagues from using it. And it’s a template for other people, especially as we move into a world where AI becomes more pervasive. How many more times are you gonna see humanists or religious people make that argument that, “Hey, AI violates my faith. God gave me a brain, and I wanna use it”?

Right. And I wonder if that’s an interesting and novel pushback to having AI thrust in our lives, sometimes against our will.

SHAY:

Yeah. In a way, I was almost like, this might be a lofty aspiration, but I was wondering if it might creep its way into the arguments against data centers.

Because everybody at this point lives near some billionaire that’s trying to install five data centers, but I live where they’re trying to install an alley of six different data centers, and it’s insane. And I’ve gone to the hearings about it, and just the way that the hearings are done is just deplorable, because they let the billionaire speak for an hour and a half, and they don’t leave any time for people that have to go to their day jobs the next morning to speak against it.

So I’m wondering, we can’t help but hope that this case, which as far as we know is the first of its kind... Please tell me if we’re wrong.

HEMANT:

That was my take on it, too. I know there’s been a Unitarian Universalist that this man mentioned as inspiration, who made a similar argument.

But I wonder, if some of these data centers start picking up steam again, could we possibly see a lawsuit with a coalition of humanists, religious people, who make the argument that we don’t want this data center to go up? Not just because of environmental reasons and electricity and water, but because this violates our religious freedoms. And that could be a fascinating case, because we know this judiciary we have right now really likes religious-based arguments.

SHAY:

Our legal department’s about to get real busy.

[SHAY interjects: Our legal department is so grateful and gracious to be hearing from you all. If you have a case that you would like for us to address and get involved in, or even want their opinion on, to see if it’s something that we can help support you with, please reach out to legal@americanhumanist.org.

I’m actually gonna be putting out a podcast episode in the near future with our legal department. But in the meantime, just want you to know it is free to reach out, and they would rather that you get them involved sooner rather than later. So just reach out.]

SHAY:

So something like AI, for you, the conversation is happening at all times. And I know you said that if other people are talking about a certain trending story, you might not necessarily touch it. But how do you keep your finger on the pulse of what people might be tired of hearing about? For me, AI stories, oh my gosh, I just could use a break from the AI stories.

HEMANT:

Sure. And the same thing can be said of politics and races and things like that. And so I can’t cover everything. So it’s a question of, I mean, what do I find interesting? And again, as someone who does this for a living, one of the luxuries of it is saying, “You know what? I can pick and choose which stories I’m gonna try to draw some attention to.”

And so, frankly, I just decide for myself, “Is this something I wanna spend a few hours trying to dig into, or is it, I’ve done that story a million times?” It might be important, but I don’t feel like diving into it. Whereas this is maybe a small potato story, but no one’s really talking about it, and it’s fascinating. And those are the ones where I feel like it’s worth my time to investigate.

And you know what? Any YouTuber, blogger, whatever will tell you this: the stories I spend so much of my time on are also the ones no one’s reading or watching. That happens all the time, and it’s like, “Come on, I spent so much time on this.”

SHAY:

Oh, it’s so painful.

HEMANT:

And at this point, I’m immune. I don’t care anymore. Whatever. I’m doing this for me now.

But that’s the thing. What I can offer people is, this is a story you may have heard a little bit about. One example of this week, there were headlines going around about a pastor who announced to his church that he had two wives.

SHAY:

Oh my God, I was so happy you covered this story, ’cause it pissed me the fuck off when I heard about it. Yes, continue. Sorry.

HEMANT:

But that’s the thing. People saw the headlines, ’cause I saw the headlines going around online and social media everywhere. What people did not understand is, oh, this dude has a criminal past. Oh, he’s done some horrible things, allegedly, to his stepdaughter. Not even allegedly. There were court filings. He was convicted of some stuff.

And it’s like, oh, that’s way more interesting, ’cause legally this guy is not married to two people. But that backstory, this dude has a way more interesting past than people are talking about, because they can’t get past the headline. It’s like, let me spend a little time trying to explain that one. That might add something to the conversation.

And so are sports stories, which we don’t have enough people talking about. I wish we had people talking about pop culture stuff a lot more too.

SHAY:

Oh, same.

HEMANT:

But all of that stuff, if there was a religious tie-in to sports, and there’s always a religious tie-in to sports... Recently there was a story about Tim Tebow, the former NFL quarterback, and how he was participating in a Christian get-rich-quick scheme.

SHAY:

Ugh.

HEMANT:

And it was taking people’s money. They were telling people to take out loans on their houses, and they should not do that and spend so much money. And the question was, does Tim Tebow realize he’s being used for this get-rich-quick scheme? Or is he just an unwitting participant, because they are openly and explicitly using Christianity to get people in the doors?

So what story is that? Is that a financial, legal problem? Is that a religion story? Or is this one of those, eh, does anyone really care about it? I don’t know. But those stories happen all the time, and what sort of expertise do you need to be able to talk about it and cover it?

This is one of the reasons I love that creator program, because there are so many voices out there who are like, “I wanna talk about religion. I might be a humanist,” but all I care about is sports, or all I care about is crappy reality shows.

And no offense to that at all, but it’s like, you know what? There are a lot of Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, Real Housewives, whatever. There’s so much religion in those shows, and in areas that I don’t feel like I have a full grasp on.

[SHAY interjects: Yeah, shout out to Alyssa Grenfell, who is one of our creator partners, who actually does really, really excellent videos covering The Secret Lives TV show.]

HEMANT:

But man, if there was, like, an atheist talking about the religion aspect in some of these shows, man, I would watch that in a heartbeat.

SHAY:

Yeah. Yeah. You honestly could watch so many different shows that you don’t even know from the jump are gonna have anything to do with religion, and play a drinking game. Feel free to have it be water, but play a hydration game of some sort until you run into somebody that’s gonna acknowledge a higher being, or a god, or something greater than themselves.

HEMANT:

And you can make fun of reality TV all you want, but if it’s a reality show where they are free to talk about their lives and their upbringing and stuff like that, religion is almost certainly gonna come into play in some aspect.

So just having someone say, “Hey, I know you don’t watch these shows. However, there’s this thing that happened on it that might be of interest to you. And I know all about it, ’cause I know all these characters.” Sometimes those are the funnest things to hear.

I love videos where... Do you ever watch those four-hour-long YouTube documentaries made by random people? I’m thinking, like, Jenny Nicholson or someone like that. She will spend four hours talking about why a certain attraction at Disney World is ridiculous, and I do not care, and I don’t know anything about it, but damn, I will watch all of that, because she has explored this topic. It’s all that she’s thought about for the past several months. And I love it.

[SHAY interjects: The moment that Hemant mentioned four-hour-long videos, I immediately started thinking about FD Signifier. I just got put onto his content recently, and I mean, it is stellar. Just like Cam James, he does a lot of the investigative journalism type of content, and oh my gosh, it’s so up my alley.]

HEMANT:

I love it when it’s a topic I care nothing about, and I know you are an expert at it, and you just geek out over it. It’s great.

I think it was Jenny, too, who made an entire... I hope I’m not wrong on this. I think Jenny Nicholson also made a fantastic long video about a church that she knew about. She’s not known as a religious, non-religious person, but she made a video all about the wacky Christmas musicals that this megachurch puts on, and they always do parodies of famous movies. And they’re all insane. And it was fascinating to watch.

SHAY:

That sounds wonderful. I need to get the link for that from you, because I would totally be into watching that.

So you’re saying, if there were voices out there that were talking about religion as it pertains to sports, as it pertains to pop culture, are there ever any other areas where you’re just like, “Man, I just don’t have the time. I wish somebody else was speaking about this”?

HEMANT:

The answer is yes, there are so many. Even literature, BookTok, whatever. There are so many areas that... If you think about a stereotypical atheist YouTuber, big giant air quotes, right? They might be academic, philosophical, they can debate God’s existence, et cetera.

I’m just not used to seeing a lot of content from out atheists who talk about their expertise in any other area. Maybe, like, “I’m an expert in, I grew up in the Mormon Church, and I will talk about that,” and that’s great.

But everyone can geek out over something. Everyone has their hobbies that they know really well. If you know Lord of the Rings really well, guess what? They’re making a gazillion movies about it. They’re making all these shows about it, and I’m sure there are ties to religion in all of this stuff, and there’s space, is the point. It doesn’t matter what you talk about.

SHAY:

Listen, you do have to get permission from Monte Mader before you go into Lord of the Rings as it pertains to religion, because she does definitely own that space.

HEMANT:

Sure. But yes, that’s exactly it. I’m glad she’s doing it, because it’s not something I could do. And that is true of anything, anywhere. There are so many things people talk about in every one of those areas.

Sports is such a big one. Baseball has so much religion involved in it. Football has so much religion involved in it. And there’s so much room within those areas. We can touch on a lawsuit here and there, but how many people are like, “Let me tell you about this issue in sports that covers religion, because I care about it, and I know this area better than you do”? That’s what I wanna hear.

So there’s no limitation to it, and I don’t wanna narrow it down to any one or two, but the answer is there’s always some area that someone knows really well, and I don’t, and I wanna hear about that.

SHAY:

Are you at the point where you’re ruined for this six degrees of separation to religion in any story that you hear at this point?

HEMANT:

In the sense of what?

SHAY:

Of just hearing about anything, like hearing a bird chirping outside, and you’re like, “I can find the religion in that.”

HEMANT:

Oh, that’s an interesting question. My idea of getting away from the computer is I wanna go hike somewhere where I don’t have internet access, so that I couldn’t even if I wanted to. And then I don’t have to think about it.

But I do get a lot of people in my real life who are like, “Hey, did you hear this story?” And the answer is, “Yeah. Yeah. I heard it. I already know.” And they were so excited to share it. Works in progress.

SHAY:

Yeah, yeah. I’m really curious. I wanna go back to the people that are thinking of starting their channels, or their content in any kinda way. Let’s talk about the mean comments. Did you have to go through that?

Because I know that the internet was a very different place when you started. And you also were starting in the blog space. It didn’t feel like that was a space where trolls were running rampant. Did you have to go through an era of having to deal with very mean, nasty comments, or people trying to rope you into debates?

HEMANT:

Yes, happened then, happens now. And I’ll say I have it better than most, because I’m not a woman on the internet.

[SHAY interjects: I really appreciate Hemant for mentioning this, because as a woman, every mean comment that I’ve gotten so far, I wanna say like 95% of them have to do with my appearance, and the rest of the 5%, look at me doing math, is about what I’m saying.

But here’s the thing that I wanna say. And this is where I wish I could go back in time and be like, “No, girl, don’t go off the platform.” The more you keep creating content, the more you will ultimately foster a community that will get rid of those people and those naysayers, because you will start finding your people, and they will be the ones that are in your comments. At least I would like to hope so.]

HEMANT:

That said, there are trolls, and what’s weird about it is I think everyone just expects it now. So in all the spaces where I do work, whether it’s my blog, whether it’s YouTube, anything, I really do not read the comments.

And sometimes that can be an issue. I had someone send me a thoughtful email recently saying, “Hey, you put up a Facebook post about this issue, but there are so many anti-trans commenters under it, and it’s rough.” That is a problem.

I don’t necessarily know what the answer is, because trying to go through and block all the trolls is futile, it seems, because you can’t. I think I actually counted. There were approximately 150,000 comments over the past several weeks, and that’s on Facebook alone. I don’t read any of them.

And sometimes people on my site, where it’s a little more curated and the commenters are a self-selective group, they will message me and say, “Hey, this person’s a problem on your page,” and then I can block them. That’s easy.

But to the broader question, yeah, people are mean online. I wish some of these platforms had better algorithms to detect mean commenters and delete them and block them forever. But the answer is, I don’t know how seriously people take them from the outside. Don’t let that stop you. You can always turn off comments if you want.

But I try not to think about it or read them, because on a lot of these platforms, this is a one-way flow of information, especially if you get more and more popular. It has to be. As much as I would like it to be a conversation that I’m starting but you are completing, I can’t do that on all the platforms I’m on, so I don’t read them.

And again, that’s a privilege some people have and others do not. But that’s also true on Twitter, Bluesky, whatever we’re calling these things. So I don’t read them, which means I miss out on some really thoughtful, interesting comments too. But it’s the only way I can make this work.

SHAY:

Yeah. Just solidarity with you on the anti-trans comments, because those are the ones that we get most often, particularly on Facebook. I don’t know why... Well, I kinda do know why. But I would like to say I don’t know why Facebook is such a cesspool and an attraction for them.

But yeah, I’ve mentioned this before, but we put up a post for Alex Pretti on International Nurses Day, and the entire comments section was just talking about FAFO, which is “look around and find out,” for people that aren’t aware. But it was just... I always want to take a shower after I have to go through and cull the comments.

But fortunately, Fish understands that we can’t just spend our entire workday using up our salary to moderate comments that Facebook won’t.

HEMANT:

And I have had people ask me, “If you’re gonna have the platform, you need to moderate it.” And the snarky side of me is like, “If you wanna pay me to hire someone to just monitor the pages, I’m happy to do it.” But otherwise, I feel like the one thing I can contribute is the content. I can’t moderate it, too, and the algorithms make it really hard to do that.

I’ve had tweets sometimes go viral, and whenever that happens, if you look at the straight-up responses, because if it goes viral, that means everyone’s seeing it, and that means all the haters are seeing it. And man, those responses are just so blatantly racist at times. And it’s like, I can’t do anything about that, so the easiest thing to do is just shut off the tab of responses and don’t read them.

And again, I wish that wasn’t the case. I wish the internet was a better place to do this sort of work, but it’s not. And so the question is, how are you gonna navigate it? I’m okay because I’ve done it for a while, and I know how to do it. I feel really bad if you’re young and newer to the platforms, where you’re not used to people commenting on how you look or what you say or whatever. That’s gotta be really rough. And I would just say, I know it’s cliché, but don’t read the comments, ever.

SHAY:

Now, I wanna address one other objection people might have, and I ran into this a lot when I was coaching musicians. “I hate social media. I hate social media, and it’s stupid, and I don’t wanna have to use it. And why do we need social media anyway? And I’m gonna do this without social media.” What is typically your response to that?

HEMANT:

“You’re right,” is the response. But the thing is, we all hate social media. All the people on social media hate social media. I’m not doing this for fun. It’s a job.

SHAY:

Yeah.

HEMANT:

But here’s the thing. If there’s a message you wanna get out there... And in our world of politics, this is very much a “we need certain voices amplified and heard.” How are you gonna get your message out? And it’s not a political thing. Whatever it is you care about, and you wanna find other people who care about the same stuff, how can you do that?

And especially, I don’t know if this is a post-COVID thing, again, big air quotes, ’cause we’re not post anything, but people don’t go out and meet in person as much. It’s harder to meet in person, so when you find communities, you’re finding them online.

[SHAY interjects: One great example of this, it’s not a social media platform, but it is a community gathering platform. We have a Discord at the American Humanist Association, so if you would like to join our Discord, please visit our website, americanhumanist.org.]

HEMANT:

But if you wanna talk about this stuff, it does require you to be on some platform where you could find other people who share your views. And so I’m not saying you have to like any of these platforms. But you have to understand that this is the only way some of us can communicate our ideas, because we don’t have people in our communities we can just meet up with and talk to.

Especially in our space, where we meet a lot of people who are ex-religious people. Maybe you’re an ex-Jehovah’s Witness, an ex-Muslim, and you don’t necessarily feel safe meeting in person with other people. Guess what? You can find communities like that online and on social media, where you would be shocked to learn, oh my God, there are all these other people who agree with the stuff I’m saying, and I’m validated, or I’m learning from those other people.

And even if you’re coaching music and you wanna find other musicians, how can you do that? I’m not saying everyone has to make material for social media, but being on there gives you a chance to find others who are really good at doing that stuff, and there is value in that.

I’ve gotten some criticism personally, when they’re like, “Why are you on Twitter at all?” The way it’s owned and the way it’s not moderated and all that, ’cause there are alternatives. It’s like, because a lot of the people who I care to follow and do learn stuff from are on there. Why am I on all these other platforms? Because there are viewers on there who might benefit from the message that I’m saying, who might learn something from it.

So I feel like the best answer, if it’s possible, is to be everywhere at all times, as much as that’s possible. But that’s what I would say to the people who are like, “I don’t like it, so I’m gonna avoid it.” You can. Good for you if you can make that work in your life. That’s healthy.

But for the people who are trying to get a message out, understanding how these platforms work and how they can reach other people can be so valuable. And that is true for a lot of LGBTQ people I know, a lot of progressives I know who are trying to get out word about elections.

One thing I have seen in this election cycle is that people who are progressive have actually pushed back against conservatives who are really good at interneting. And they’ve been able to push back in a way that their stuff is going viral in a way that we did not see in 2024. You know what I mean?

SHAY:

Right. Yeah.

HEMANT:

So even if you don’t like it, don’t trash the people who are trying to make it work for them, because I promise you, that’s a really valuable service.

SHAY:

It’s such a great point about finding that digital space for community, especially if you’re disabled, if you are a community that needs protection.

But then also, we have people that have started local groups through American Humanist Association that are posting TikToks to help others find them. Elizabeth Hegwood is just phenomenal at posting on TikTok, and the people are just coming out in droves. These TikToks are performing very well, and they’re finding for the first time that there are other like-minded people near them that they wouldn’t have otherwise known about.

HEMANT:

And how do you find that community? Let’s say you live near a moderately big city. If you wanted to start a group for whatever niche you are in, how do you do it at this point? The answer is, try to get the word out in any way you can that you’re comfortable with.

So if TikTok works for her, great. People are gonna find it, because that’s how these algorithms work. But if posting an event page on Facebook does it, great. If Meetup works, great. Put it everywhere, because you’re gonna find different people in different areas, and there’s not just one place where you can go to find this stuff anymore.

And so we are, again, for better and for worse, moving to a place where humanism is not defined by one or two older white dudes. The way people are learning about it and finding out about it is because there are a thousand people out there talking about whatever it is they wanna talk about, and you connect with this one or that one, and you don’t know who that person is, and that’s fine. That’s great.

We want as many voices out there as possible. And the people who are super talented at it, and this is what we were talking about earlier, I hope there’s a way to amplify those voices somehow.

But the answer is, in a good sense, in our neck of the woods, we’re not reaching people because there’s one or two figureheads at the top who speak for all of us, or who are thought to speak for all of us. There are more voices out there, and you can find them wherever you are if you’re looking for it.

And so we want that. That is good for everybody, because there is no one humanism that defines everything, that is gonna fit for everybody. The AI story was interesting, ’cause I think it reached people who otherwise would not think about humanism necessarily, but they heard about that story.

SHAY:

Yeah, my cousin just sent me the story from some tech blog today.

HEMANT:

Look at that, right? And that is a space where they wouldn’t necessarily talk about humanism. But because this crossed paths somehow, it reached people who it otherwise wouldn’t reach. And that’s also why I want atheists talking about reality TV and sports, ’cause you could reach people who might not otherwise care about this stuff.

SHAY:

We’ve gotta talk about you and humanism. Do you consider yourself to be a humanist?

HEMANT:

Yes.

SHAY:

Okay. I had listened to a podcast that you had done years back, and you had said that you had stopped even referring to yourself as an atheist so often, aside from the brand, Friendly Atheist. Has that been replaced with humanism for you?

HEMANT:

It’s not a no to humanism thing. I feel like, in terms of reaching people with the message I wanna reach, it doesn’t matter what I call myself. If I were to start my YouTube channel or my blog today, I probably wouldn’t use Friendly Atheist. I would probably just...

SHAY:

Really?

HEMANT:

...use my name. Yeah, just use my name or whatever, because I can just talk about whatever I want then. And so I feel like no one really asks me what my label is. No one really cares what my label is. I hope they’re just like, “Okay, for whatever reason, I trust this voice. I trust the commentary or the articles,” and they know very little about me, which I’m fine with.

Maybe because I’m not the sort of person who wears atheist T-shirts. And I love the people who do, but I’m not necessarily out there as an atheist.

SHAY:

I’ll strike that off your holiday gift list.

HEMANT:

I know. I know. But because I’m not that sort of person, if they know me, it’s because of the articles or YouTube or something like that. But I like the fact that they’re not trying to categorize me in any sort of way.

So if you ask me straight up what word do I use, I’d probably say atheist, only because that’s the word I feel people are most familiar with. But in terms of personally, what do I go by, it depends who I’m talking to, and it depends what you’re trying to do.

[SHAY interjects: Okay, we’re likely gonna do a future episode on this, because it’s a discussion that we keep coming back to on this podcast of, does it matter more that you use the label, or does it matter more that you do the work? And I don’t think it has to be an either/or. I definitely am seeing that it’s a different strokes for different folks type of thing.

But I also understand, when people don’t know what humanism is, they’re not gonna know to ask about it unless they’re hearing it. And Hemant does speak to this as we let him continue talking.

But if humanism is something that you wish that you knew how you felt, and what your values amounted to, and suddenly you hear this word humanist, which was my journey to humanism, suddenly it all feels like it makes sense, and it feels like you’re validated. And it feels like, oh, there is a nice, neat package that this falls under.

Some people don’t like a nice, neat package. Some people just want to live their humanist values. But I think right now, in this world, when there are so many of us that don’t know that there’s a name for us, I do think that it’s important to say it. But I don’t know. So I wanna talk to somebody in the future about this.]

HEMANT:

So humanism does fit everything I’m doing, and it applies. So does atheist, depending on who I’m talking to. So does heathen. So does whatever you want. So I care less about the label, and I care more about what people stand for.

I feel like we’ve seen that in this election cycle too, because there’s an ongoing national conversation right now about what it means to be a Christian, and we are seeing different elements of that play out.

And again, this is a fascinating story, because the Trump administration in general, not to get political about this, but the Trump administration has a very specific definition of what that word means. But there are people who are campaigning who are offering a very different one. And Muslims, like Abdul El-Sayed in Michigan, who are offering a different version of how a non-Christian can also speak for more people than himself.

And again, these are all very interesting stories. And there is a woman running in Tennessee for Congress right now who is an atheist, who is open about it, but never talks about it, because that’s not what she needs to be defined as, because she’s so much more than just a religious label, and I love seeing that in play.

I mean, we talk about Jared Huffman, the humanist in Congress. I love that he calls himself a humanist, but frankly, I don’t care as much, because he’s doing good things. And if that’s the case, use whatever label you want. There is symbolic meaning to all of this, and I appreciate that, but I care less about the label than I used to years ago.

SHAY:

I was gonna ask you the question about where you wanna see humanism going, but what I’m gathering is, do you want humanism to get to a place, and secularism as a whole, where it won’t matter what we are, as long as we are doing the good work?

HEMANT:

This is bad news for the American Humanist Association, but...

SHAY:

I won’t tell Fish.

HEMANT:

Don’t listen to this episode. Right, right. But if people are doing good humanist work, and they’re pushing for, let’s protect the environment, let’s try to help our fellow men and women and things like that, if they’re doing that, do I care what they call themselves? I really don’t.

Now, is there importance and value to saying, “I’m doing this as an openly non-religious person, as a humanist”? Yeah, there is definitely value to that. But at the end of the day, if I see a Christian politician, slash preacher, who is also defending LGBTQ rights and church-state separation, how much do I care that person is a preacher? The answer is, it’s a very low priority on my list of things to be mad about. There are so many bigger things.

So the label doesn’t matter to me as much. I do wanna see people heading in the right direction, and I have found, through writing about this and talking about this, that I can reach more people when I talk about common values than I think I would if I were just saying, “Here’s why you should stop believing in God.”

’Cause I have met plenty of people who do not believe in God who I want nothing to do with. So I don’t really care about their label. I care about what their values are, where they’re going with them. And I feel that’s kinda what humanism is doing anyway. So do I care if they call themselves a humanist? That’s not my job. That’s Fish’s job.

SHAY:

On that note, do you have any final encouraging words for people that wanna start a channel, or start being a content creator?

HEMANT:

Yeah, do it. That’s it. Don’t worry about it being perfect. Don’t worry about you saying the right things, being perfect. It’s never gonna be perfect. What’s important is, if you feel comfortable putting your voice out there, do it.

If you’re comfortable where it’s TikTok and I can see you, great. If you wanna write about it, there are platforms that let you write about it. If you don’t wanna show your face, you can make a podcast, and we only hear your voice. You could do that. There are so many ways to get your message out, in whatever ways you’re comfortable with.

But especially if you feel that you have gone through something because of religion, and you wanna make sure others do not, and you wanna help them through the struggle and be the voice that you wish you could’ve heard, just get out there and do it.

And then, if you take it seriously, and you realize people are sympathizing with it, then you can always work on making it, quote-unquote, more professional. But I promise you, the tools are out there, and you do not need fancy crap to get your stuff out there and heard.

Some of the best YouTubers I have ever seen, they’re using their phones, no microphone, no lighting. They’re just standing in front of there and ranting, and it’s glorious. And that’s true for any sort of social media stuff. Just don’t be afraid to just start doing it.

I think everyone who starts will be surprised at how often and how quickly they get positive feedback, and not just trolls. Genuinely good feedback from people who are like, “Thank you for saying the thing I’ve been thinking.”

SHAY:

I love that. Hemant, I’m gonna let you go. I’ve taken up so much of your time with tech issues and all of that. But I just have to tell people, you are the real deal.

HEMANT:

Oh, thank you.

SHAY:

When I first started working at AHA, you were probably the first name that came up as far as who’s who in this space that I would need to know of. And everybody was so intimidating at first, in my brain. But when I got a chance to meet you and see the work that you do, I just adore you. So thank you so much for the work that you’re doing.

HEMANT:

Oh, thank you so much, Shay. Thank you for what you’re doing. Thanks for this podcast, by the way. And thank you for all the work you’re doing with the creators as well.

And honestly, if anyone’s listening who has not seen the AHA’s Creator Fund, go check out the voices they are amplifying. There are so many. They are so diverse. They’re so interesting. Go subscribe to all of them.