SHAY:

Welcome back to How to Humanist. This is your host, Shay Leonia, on behalf of the American Humanist Association. I would love to remind you all that there is going to be the conference, our annual conference at AHA. This year it's gonna be virtual and online, so no matter where you are, don't let price be a barrier. You can pay what you can, or you can pay for someone else's ticket, and please find out more details at conference.americanhumanist.org.

We have incredible speakers lined up this year, including some of your favorite creators, like Monte Mader, Barrett Paul, Faith Litchfield, who was a previous guest on the podcast, and so much more. And we are so excited to see you there.

Today, I would like to preface this episode by letting you know ahead of time that in case you have been approaching this as a family-friendly podcast, there is cursing. We do curse on this podcast. I'm trying to be better at limiting that. But also, in today's particular episode, unless you would like to take this opportunity to have a talk with your kids if they are listening, I just wanna let you know that we will also be talking about kink.

Today's guest is Reverend Leika Lewis, they/she, who is a secular minister, chaplain, coach, and consultant. After a career as a corporate change management expert, Leika turned their skills to guiding secular folks and seekers who want to map their own path post deconstruction and beyond dogma. Leika is a past president of the UU Humanist Association, a queer, kinky, polyamorous poet, and a reluctant Golden Retriever in a world of black cats. One of my favorite Janet Jackson songs. Heathens and heretics are their favorite people.

Leika put themselves on my radar, so if you have a friend or you yourself feel like you have a hot topic to bring to the podcast, feel free to reach out, podcast@humanist.org, and I really look forward to hearing from you, and I hope that you enjoy this episode.

SHAY:

I wanna start with UU, because I had no knowledge of UU. I still can't even say it. I always just default to UU. It's Univ...

LEIKA:

Uni... Unitarian Universalist.

SHAY:

I always forget which one comes first. Unitarian Universalist, Unitarians, yeah.

And can you clarify for me, is that a space where a bunch of secular people go, or are there also theistic people there?

LEIKA:

Yeah, so very brief history snippet. Unitarian Universalism came out of two Christian traditions that came together. The Unitarians believed that good works were the way to heaven, and so they were all about doing good in the world. And the Universalists believed that a loving God wasn't gonna send anybody to hell, so they were like the hippies of their time.

The two big pieces that tie into the secular movement, one was the decision to not require a statement of faith in God to be a minister. They were still a Christian denomination, but they were like, "This doesn't feel right, so we're not gonna make people sign a statement of faith." And that was huge. That was a big thing. And then the other thing was the formation of religious humanism, of saying, "Hey, we are not identifying with this concept of a personified deity, but we still wanna gather as a group, as a community." And that really kicked off in Minneapolis.

So that started with Unitarian Universalism, but where we are now is that we have theists and non-theists and people who are in the middle and not really sure, and people who are on the side and just in community with everyone. So it's really a collection. When people ask about it, I say, if you've heard of an interfaith event or something like that, we're kind of like an interfaith denomination.

SHAY:

I love that, and thank you for clearing that up for me, 'cause I know Faith Litchfield had come on the podcast and was saying how since deconstructing from Christianity, she was seeking places for ritual. I can't recall in the moment what her assumption was about UU, but I remember suggesting it because Kevin Jago, who is now our director of education, is a minister.

And you are as well?

LEIKA:

I am, yep.

SHAY:

What's that like?

LEIKA:

It's really interesting. It's incredible because I have had so many people I've known who have gone through a process of deconstruction, or even of a change in their faith. If you're familiar with anyone who's worked with The Clergy Project, that can mean the end of your work. I have blown up my life twice when it comes to religion.

And the nice thing about being a UU minister is that I am one of those people who realized in seminary that I was non-theistic.

SHAY:

During seminary?

LEIKA:

During seminary, yeah. Because I grew up in evangelical fundamentalism, and so for a long time, I thought, I don't fit here, but I don't fit here because I must be a liberal Christian. That must be the problem. And so then I got to seminary still thinking, "I'm a liberal Christian, and I'm finally gonna be with my liberal Christian friends, and it's gonna be amazing."

And I got to seminary, and hearing everyone talk about how their faith in Jesus was their motivation for their social justice work, and their beliefs about equality, and all of that, and I was like, "This is beautiful and amazing, and I'm so touched, and I don't feel any of this. This is not me." And that's the point at which it was like, "Oh, I'm not any kind of Christian, am I?"

And so my deconstruction process came to a head during seminary. But because of being a Unitarian Universalist minister in formation, I was actually able to stay in my denomination and just get to the place of being a humanist minister. I identify as a mystic humanist, and still maintain my position in my denomination. But of course, that's not the case for a lot of people who go through a deconstruction journey.

SHAY:

I'm so fascinated because there are so many things I wanna ask you all at once.

So your email signature says that you practice at the intersection of the sacred and the profane.

LEIKA:

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

SHAY:

We're gonna dive into so much in this conversation, but can you just tickle me with going there first? Because I love that.

LEIKA:

Yeah, absolutely. So you know that there's kind of a couple of layers to that. The intro layer is that I really believe that there is sacredness in everything, in the mundane, in the everyday. And people talk about kind of this segmentation of, okay, these are the things that are sacred, and these are the things that are profane. And I don't really believe that's a thing. So that's one layer.

But the other layer is that I am a minister who is queer and kinky and polyamorous. And I talk a lot about not just ethical non-monogamy, but the ethics of non-monogamy and the value foundation that I see in non-monogamy. I talk about the amazing exploration of ritual in kink space. There's so much to be said there.

On the one hand, the entry level is the, okay, I don't really think sacred and profane are categories. But then the other thing is in the categories where people are like, "Oh my goodness, that's too scandalous, that's not a thing that we can say," I think that is where there is just so much to explore from the perspective of, where do we find the experience of awe, of the holy? And I do use words like that, like sacred and holy, because I think as a non-theistic minister, for me it's a lot about reclaiming those. Because my feeling of awe at, an amazing commitment ceremony with a polycule or a kink scene, it can be just as powerful and impactful and religious of an experience as anything that is officially sacred.

SHAY:

I have to share with you, first of all, you cracked open my brain just now. I'm so here for all of this, and asking you questions is just gonna beget more questions. If need be, we'll bring you on again.

LEIKA:

That'd be great.

SHAY:

About kink, I just wanna address this for anybody who's listening and is like, "Oh gosh, is this gonna be one of those podcast episodes?" No.

But I think what is important to address is that I am someone who is brand new to kink and would still be considered just green. And so I went to a kink expo type thing, it was just like a small room where people were demonstrating different things. And one of the things that they did a demonstration on was, what is it? Shibari? Is that the right term?

LEIKA:

Yes.

[SHAY interjects: Okay, for those of you uninitiated, not far from myself, Shibari is actually a Japanese word that literally translates to tie or binding. But today in kink it is known as Japanese rope bondage. So the core elements of the practice include aesthetics, it focuses on creating geometric line patterns across the human body. Connection, it acts as a nonverbal dialogue built on trust, communication, tension, and consent between the people involved, which you're about to hear me discuss. And sensation, the physical pressure of the rope provides deep sensory feedback and grounding similar to a firm hug or a weighted blanket.]

SHAY:

So they were demonstrating that, and then at the end of the presentations, they set up these stations around the room where you could go see if you want to be tied up, or if you want some sensory type things.

LEIKA:

Feel hot wax.

SHAY:

Yeah, hot wax or that spiky tool thing.

So what's interesting, and if anybody needs to skip past this part, I'm about to mention domestic violence. So I had experienced from one of my first partners a situation where I was hogtied against my will. And it was not based around any type of kink whatsoever. This was just a sadistic thing that happened to me in my first relationship, and it was extremely traumatic, especially because I'm claustrophobic, and also just the, it's not something that you want to experience with a partner that you're supposed to trust and who's supposed to keep you safe and protected.

That was a memory for me that had been buried. I barely even remembered it at the time in my day-to-day life. And I remember going over to the station where the person that was doing the Shibari, happened to be a femme, and she was like, "Hey, do you wanna try this?" And I was like, "I don't know, I get claustrophobic. I get very yutsky." And she said, "I can start here, and I can ask you every time I tie a new loop around you, I can ask you if you want me to tie another one."

And so I stood there as she wrapped around my waist one loop, and then she said, "Can I keep going?" And I said, "Sure." And then she wrapped around another loop and asked again, and asked every single time. Obviously, it wasn't gonna be a full Shibari experience for me, but it was my waist, which was very symbolic to me in a way, because it was around my genitals and around this sacred part of me. I started crying in that moment, and my body just healed tremendously just from being able to have a revisionist history of sorts and, quote-unquote, "fixed" that experience by being with someone who allowed me to opt in, allowed me to check in throughout.

And so when I think of kink, that's the first experience that I always think of. I don't think of sexual pleasure immediately. I think about healing.

LEIKA:

Yeah. So I just wanted to share that with the listeners if it is at all helpful for the way that they listen to you talk about kink.

Yes, I'm so glad that you bring that up, and I think that is something that people have a misconception about with kink and about polyamory, that there's this immediate assumption of, oh, this conversation is getting salacious, going into sexual territory.

And yes, certainly there are lots of people who practice kink as a part of their sexual life. There are lots of people who practice polyamory with romantic and sexual partners, and that's not all of it. That is not all of the experience. And that is not, when I talk about the sacredness, absolutely I can talk about sacred moments just like you described that may or may not involve anything sexual.

And one of the things that I always bring up when I'm talking about polyamory is that there's this hymn in the UU songbook, and it goes back to civil rights, where we sing about there's more love somewhere, right? And this is this beautiful concept of expansion and unfolding. And what I ask people is to think about that in all of the parts of their life.

So one of my partners is a queerplatonic partner where we have decided to share a house together. She's auntie to my child, she's one of my partners. We've never had a romantic relationship, have no intention to have a romantic relationship. But she's chosen to be part of a multi-generational household, with me, with my child. And that's one of the ways that polyamory shows up.

And so there are so many ways to approach kink, to approach polyamory, and that is one of the things that I find so beautiful and sacred, is that so much of both of those practices also tie back into something that is foundational, a foundational value for me, and that is communication and consent. And I know those are, "Okay, wait, but Leika, those are two different things." Yeah, but I see them as really entwined, because you cannot fully have communication without respect for the other person's consent and autonomy and agency.

And I think in order for anything to be practiced ethically, kink or polyamory or going to the grocery store on Tuesday, I think those things need to be included.

SHAY:

Yeah. Can I ask you a question that I can only imagine many people are probably thinking when you talked about having a platonic partner? And I've had this question before too. Why not just have them be a friend? What is the difference between having them be your bestie versus having them, acknowledging them as a platonic partner?

LEIKA:

So I think it's two things. So one is that I would suggest, why not a bestie? I think the heteronormative concept of relationships and the mononormative concept of relationships has created a hierarchy where it's like, okay, romantic love and marriage and whatnot is up here, and then there's friendship.

But how many people have, the first person they would call about something would be their bestie. If something wonderful happened, they would want a circle of their closest beloved friends. And I would suggest whatever you wanna call it, that's fine, but aren't those your partners in life? Aren't those the people who you've decided to do this crazy, wild ride with?

So that's one thing. And then the second thing is going back to the word that I used, queerplatonic. So for anyone who's not familiar with the term, it is specifically about querying or challenging the notion of platonic relationships. So it's saying, "Hey, yes, it's a platonic relationship," but it's not just anything. It is just as meaningful and powerful as any other relationship, just as meaningful and powerful as a romantic relationship. It just so happens that we're not romantically involved.

SHAY:

Wow. As you're speaking, I'm thinking all throughout about my bestie Cheryl, who came on the podcast. For anybody who's been an avid podcast listener, we did a whole episode with Cheryl. So now I'm gonna have to talk to Cheryl about becoming my partner because it just fits.

LEIKA:

I love it. Imagine a world where your beloveds, whoever they are, are able to be there in your hardest moment without having to skirt the rules. It's just, "Yeah, I passed out in the subway, and I'm having medical treatment, and here are my people, and they're going to need to be here with me," without having to lie or anything like that. That would be amazing, to just be able to have a circle of care without having to explain.

SHAY:

Yeah. Yeah, and Jane Fonda is so big on advocating for those groups of friendships.

LEIKA:

Oh, she's wonderful.

SHAY:

She speaks particularly on female friendships in your life, and that is so true for me right now. I mean, nobody comes above Cheryl to me right now, because I mean, she's there for everything, and I'm her daughter's aunt, and that's just how it is. So maybe we've been in a platonic partnership and didn't even know it.

LEIKA:

Yeah, I love it. Marvelous.

SHAY:

So did your dive into kink and poly, was that informed at all by your history of religious trauma? And I'm not just throwing spaghetti and saying, "Oh, you must have religious trauma."

LEIKA:

No, absolutely.

SHAY:

Leika was kind enough to let me know ahead of time that they've had religious trauma.

LEIKA:

Yes, absolutely. This is one of the things that I speak about and one of the things I coach about. And yeah, absolutely, because having grown up in a high-control religion, to give you an idea of the circles that I grew up in, if you're familiar with the Duggars.

[SHAY interjects: The Duggars became popular on the TLC show 19 Kids and Counting. Yes, 19. Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar are the parents of 19 biological children, 10 boys and nine girls. And they are devout independent Baptists with strict conservative Christian values. They don't believe in using birth control. They choose to homeschool their kids, and they practice modest dress and supervised courtships.]

LEIKA:

So the Duggars are, last time I checked, I haven't checked in a little while, but the last time I checked, the Duggars were current friends with my childhood best friends. So I wasn't directly part of their circle, but that was the type of circle that I traveled in. And there was a lot of control, and the biggest thing for me that really ties back to your question was the diminishment of my own instincts and the diminishment of my own experience of emotion.

SHAY:

Oh.

LEIKA:

And I grew up being taught emotions cannot be trusted. You just have to think things through, and you have to think things through in this specific way that we've taught you to think about things. And so that was my first experience of church. And I was a rule follower, and so I followed it even when it didn't make sense.

And so that was the first thing that blew up my life. And then I did a pendulum swing and went the other way and married into a Pentecostal family, and that was all emotion, don't trust the logic thing. And that didn't work either for me. And for me, it was about getting back in touch with my own self, my body and mind, all of the way through.

And so yeah, absolutely, taking control of my own connections, my own desires, my own ability to be open to people, to experiences, to just the way I want to move through the world with expansiveness. And so yeah, absolutely, I think that was part of that exploration.

And I do want to say for anyone listening who is not someone who happens to be wired for polyamory, I do think, it's something like, I really don't like the wooden roller coasters. I'm fine with loops, you can twist all over the place, but send me on one of the big ones and drop it down and I'm dead. It's just awful. It's just not for me.

I absolutely think that monogamy is a beautiful thing for people who want that and need that, and that is the connection that works for them. I don't think it should be the only option. And I feel the same way about religion, I'm like, there are beautiful theistic religions out there that are amazing for people. I talked about my seminary colleagues, and that was beautiful for them. It just wasn't me.

I just wanna be clear as I'm talking about my own experiences that I am not saying this is the only way to do it, 'cause that is absolutely not the case. This is one of the ways to do it, and it can be a beautiful way for those for whom it works, and not for those who are wired differently, and I will celebrate that experience as well.

SHAY:

Yeah. So for those who maybe have a history of religious trauma or are deconstructing as we speak, and may be surfacing that trauma, and might not be wired for polyamory or curious about kink, what would you prescribe to them, or suggest where they would start to process that? Therapy seems an obvious answer to me, but is there more?

LEIKA:

Therapy for sure. Yeah, therapy for sure. One of the things...

SHAY:

And shout out to Recovering From Religion also.

LEIKA:

Ooh, yes.

[SHAY interjects: I just wanted to take a moment to double down on a recommendation to seek out recoveringfromreligion.org. The people there are absolutely incredible, and they are there to support you with resources for anybody that's coping with doubt or seeking answers about religion and living without faith and theism.]

LEIKA:

Finding a therapist who is able to process religious trauma, I think it's wonderful that we've gotten to a place where there are so many therapists who name that as an experience. I had experiences early on of people being like, "That's just, churches are full of imperfect people, and you just have to expect that." And now getting 20 years later of therapists being able to say, "No, this is actual trauma that people need expert help processing." So 100%, therapists.

The other thing, one of the things that I do as a coach is secular ritual, and I thought for the longest time, I was like, "I hate ritual, I cannot stand ritual." What I realized is I hate ritual that is exclusive. I hate ritual that is used as a barrier or a wall. But how many of us have a favorite coffee cup that we use every day, or a lucky scarf that we wear on winter days where we need a little bit of an extra boost in our mood?

There are so many rituals that we partake in, and I think that it's really important, if you're someone who's recovering from religion, I think we have a tendency to do the pendulum swing that I did. I would rather people who are going through the process of deconstruction not have to blow their lives up twice like I did. So naming the parts that were harmful, really important. But also, it's okay if you still like hymns, it's okay if you still miss the summer camp experiences that you had at church camp. You don't have to say everything about it was terrible in order to be legitimate in your deconstruction journey.

So I think naming where the harm was, where the sources of shame were, because most high control systems, whether they're religious or not, high control systems operate on shame. And naming where those sources of shame were, where the things that didn't work for me but I felt coerced into doing, whether that was, one for me was evangelism.

I remember distinctly, I think I was seven, I was either seven or just turned eight, but I remember a colleague of my dad's agreeing to be baptized, and it was a big thing, and everybody was celebrating, and I remember having this awful pit in my stomach thinking, "I feel like she's just agreeing because she wants the arguing to stop." And that was, for me, a really pivotal foundational moment. It would be another 10 years before I even started to question the whole system. But looking back on my deconstruction journey, that was the moment it started, because I thought, "This is not what she wants. This is what she feels like she needs to do."

And I think for anyone who's going through a deconstruction journey, naming those spaces and holding those stories, and deciding what did work for you and what didn't work for you, because there are so many ways to still fulfill the things that do work for you outside of an environment that's not safe.

SHAY:

An episode we did with Cain Culto is coming to mind because I am somebody who is very much primed to hold a grudge. And whenever I hold a grudge, I am like, "There was no justice here, I was traumatized." And I am so hard-pressed to find any type of enjoyment in those memories.

And I was so fascinated because speaking with Cain, he was acknowledging, "Listen, I have enough compassion to realize that their conservativeness and their beliefs and their rigidity was a coping mechanism for them. And it gets to be my own decision to do better and to change what I believe."

So I truly appreciate you acknowledging that too, 'cause it's something that I definitely need to work on some more.

When you say that you blew up your life twice, I think a lot of us stay in these uncomfortable situations, whatever they are, because we are just so afraid of the unknown that's on the other side of that. Can you take us through that just so that people can understand what might be there for them?

LEIKA:

Yeah, absolutely. I'm a big fan of transparency. I'm a big fan of, I will tell it like it is. And it's something that, 20-plus years later, I still have grief over. Because there were friendships that I truly thought were core foundational friendships that when my religious beliefs changed, I realized were only based on our shared proximity to that religion.

And so in that process, regardless of how well it goes, there's still gonna be some grief for, if nothing else, the time that you spent in a place that didn't suit you.

But I think I went through almost the most dramatic version of it. I want to be very clear for people who are going through deconstruction that there are spaces where you can say, "I'm not sure this works for me anymore," and that can be an okay part of the exploration. And also that for those who grew up in spaces or are still existing in spaces like I did, that there is life after that breaking. I look back at the amount of fear that I held in my body 24/7 from the age of about four years old on. It was just a constant part of my life from when I was four until I was about 35. I was just all the time afraid.

Yes, it was awful to end friendships of 20 years. Yes, it was awful to have, for one, I had someone who decided that she wasn't gonna be at my wedding because my beliefs had changed, and it would look bad. So there were lots of sad moments, and I have an actual connection to joy now, not because of deconstruction specifically. Deconstruction was the prerequisite. But the connection to joy that I have, the connection to expansiveness that I have now, is because of reconstruction, because of the process of rebuilding, that I went down kind of to the base level and said, "Okay, I have no idea what the fuck I believe. So what is it that makes me feel the same way that they feel about Jesus?" And I started from there. That's kind of basically how I did it.

In the journey that I took, I was able to decide, okay, here are the things that are powerful and meaningful and sacred to me, and here are the choices that I am making for the life that I want to live. And so that is things that are really meaningful and significant, and things that people might say are frivolous that were also meaningful and significant.

We have, in the middle of our living space, so we have the kitchen and the breakfast room and then the living room, an open plan, on the bookcase between the breakfast room and the living room is a nail polish spinner. And that nail polish spinner was something that we bought after I got divorced, and we were like, "You know what, this is something that we enjoy," that sometimes people think is frivolous, a decorative practice. And now I describe painting my nails as one of my contemplative practices. It's weighted blankets for my hands.

And it's like little things and big things and little things that are big things, and finding your way through all of that. That's one of, I would say, my favorite things to do with coaching clients of mine, is to have those moments of, "Okay, yeah, this sucked. Yeah, there's a lot of shitty in the process of deconstruction," and there's this infinite potential for beauty in the reconstruction, and that's my favorite part.

SHAY:

Yeah. Ooh. Ugh, there's so much.

The woo, I know you mentioned that there's a science behind the woo. I wanna touch on that, and then we can revisit.

LEIKA:

Yeah, absolutely. There are things that we think of, like science and mysticism as being polar opposites. And I think for some of us, especially who have gone through a period of deconstruction, whether it's a time or where we live permanently, we can get in a space of being allergic to anything that might vaguely suggest what we experienced. Totally reasonable, totally get it from a psychological perspective, like of course that happens.

And I think that makes us miss out on some really interesting scientific possibilities. When you look at, for example, one of my favorite topics to preach on is quantum physics. For example, the way that particles get entangled is at massive heat and pressure and very fast. This is obviously for any quantum physicist out there, this is absolutely the layman's explanation of this. Don't all come for me.

SHAY:

Yes, please leave me with the layman's explanation.

LEIKA:

But okay, so that's how they entangle particles. Now, let's think back to the beginning of the universe. We don't know exactly how it worked, but we do know that there was this moment of infinite pressure and heat and small suddenly expanding.

So from a basic scientific principle perspective, how could we as scientists argue that we are not all connected? If the conditions under which particles entangle is a similar environment to the Big Bang.

And there are so many things like that, that I'm like, I am not here for actual pseudoscience, right? But there is so much spooky science that sometimes we don't connect with because of our concern about the very dangerous environments in which some of us experienced.

One of the classes I teach is called Tarot for Skeptics. I don't read palms, I don't tell the future. But what I do, in that class, very brief overview, is we talk about the ways in which images can allow us to connect to our subconscious. It was amazing, it was one of my favorite memories, one class I was teaching, we got about halfway through it and someone goes, "Wait, these are like journal prompts." And I was like, "Yeah, exactly, that's exactly what we're doing, we are giving you an opportunity." Some of us are visual people, some of us are not visual people, but for the visual people, this is an opportunity for you to bypass the part of your brain that wants to overthink, and give you a chance to go, "Oh, what's my immediate feeling about this? What immediately comes up for me when I see this card?"

There are some really interesting people in the world of tarot who use tarot as a psychological tool, not about divination. There are lots of people who use tarot for divination, I'm not one of them. I use tarot for psychological connection. And that's another example of something that I'm like, okay, yeah, absolutely, it sounds a little woo, but there's real scientific goodness here if we're willing to suspend our immediate reaction.

And as much as I would love to know all the scientific things, I know there's lots of science that I don't understand that has lots of opportunities for us to be like, okay, what is unexpected and misunderstood.

A funny argument that I used to have with my ex was about questions. And he thought that, I haven't asked him lately what he thinks, but at the time we had this discussion many times, he said, "We will eventually get to the end of questions. We will have used science to answer all the things. We will eventually run out of more things to answer. Science will be our tool for figuring everything out." And I said, "I think that science will be our tool for figuring out where the infinite questions are." That the more we dig in, the more mystery there is. And I don't see that as a bad thing. I see that as a beautiful thing, 'cause I can't imagine a world where we didn't have more to explore.

SHAY:

Yeah. What a tragedy that would be.

LEIKA:

Yeah. And like I said, he might have totally changed his view on that. But he's not the only person I've had that conversation with, being like, "Science will help us figure everything out." Yeah, science can help us figure out lots of things, but every time we figure something out, there's more for us to explore.

SHAY:

Absolutely.

So how do you approach astrology, out of curiosity?

LEIKA:

So I will say that I don't have a great deal of knowledge about astrology, and it's not my area of expertise, to be clear. But here's the thing, I think, is that we know that the moon has an impact on our planet, and we know that the moon has an impact on people. Ask any nurse, ask any ER doctor, the full moon is going to have some impact. And I don't think that we have figured out from a scientific perspective all of the impact that planets and other planetary bodies could potentially have on us.

I don't know what that looks like, I doubt that we have it all figured out. I don't think, I would not say, and I don't think a lot of people would say, "Okay, astrology, we've got it, that's done, nothing else to figure out." But I do think there's some interesting stuff to potentially explore there about what the impact on human bodies could be, considering our makeup of water. But yeah, I don't know, it's certainly something that I'm willing to engage with and explore and discuss and wonder about, even if it's not something that I personally follow really closely.

SHAY:

Yeah, 'cause in that reconstruction phase, what I'm finding is, and I've told this story before on the podcast, is the hardest thing for me to let go of when I became humanist was the notion that my mom in some other realm was helping to guide anything good that was happening in my life, until I spoke to Greg Epstein, who was able to help me reframe that thought into, "That's a nice thought to have." And so now I'm at peace with that.

But there are many people that are curious about humanism, that come to humanism, but then suddenly they hear, "Oh wait, I'm not allowed to believe anything about astrology," or, "I'm not allowed to believe in a magic trick," or something like that.

It's really discouraging for me to hear as a new humanist, because just like I did, you might change your mind later on, but it doesn't make you, it shouldn't make you any less humanist to me. But there are plenty of humanists that are like, "No, you come back and visit us when you no longer believe that."

LEIKA:

Yeah. This is something that I get myself in trouble with in humanist circles for sure. But I believe there are just as many humanist fundamentalists and humanist evangelicals as there are in other spaces.

SHAY:

Really?

LEIKA:

For sure. I don't know about numbers, I'm not saying numbers, but I'm saying that yeah, absolutely, the mindset of, there are people who went from the mindset of, "I know the one way, and the one way is Jesus Christ," to the mindset of, "I know the one way, and the one way is atheism." Tell me how that's different. It's the exact same thought pattern.

There are people who are like, "You will not find healing until you find Jesus Christ." And there are people who are like, "You will not find healing, wisdom, whatever, however you wanna put it, until you give up Jesus Christ." Same mindset. And my thing is, I didn't escape that world twice to just land myself in the same mindset.

If you are a humanist who feels a connection with your grandmother who's gone on, I'm not gonna tell you how to do your humanism. I'm not even gonna tell you it's not possible under humanism. I'm gonna say, "Look, I don't experience ghosts, but I can tell you that we're a lot of energy, so maybe you're experiencing something that I just haven't experienced. Cool. I'd love to hear your story."

And that's how I look at it, is I want... Now, am I going to be hosting a humanist seance? No. But I'm not gonna tell anybody that their humanism isn't valid because they didn't sign the articles of belief. I don't think that's how we should be as humanists. And I think that way of engaging, we've got enough shit going on in the world.

So I'll say two things. One, there are humanists who are also theists. So is it a huge proportion? Maybe not, but I'm not gonna tell somebody they can't be a humanist just 'cause they're also a theist. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is, if we want to actually fix our world, if we want to actually make a world that we all can live in and continue living in, that we don't burn it down, it is not going to be done by humanists alone.

And so if all we could do was go to our theistic kin with an attitude of arrogance, that is, I think, not just a gross way to treat other humans, but also, and I'm sorry if that sounds judgmental, there are not very many things that I do that on.

SHAY:

No, no, no, I agree.

LEIKA:

But I honestly think that's maybe not how we wanna treat each other. But also, I think it's counterproductive to advancing the justice goals that will make it so that humans can take responsibility for what we've done to our planet, and can create a planet and a universe and a future that is enough for us all.

SHAY:

I can't believe time just flew by. And there's still so much more that I wanted to ask you. So is there anything that you have coming up that you would like to share with the audience?

LEIKA:

Yeah, I would love to actually. This upcoming Sunday, August 30th, I am going to be hosting a webinar that is called Permission to Choose, and it is about those first steps of realizing, okay, so I don't have the beliefs anymore, whether that's belief in religion, belief in a relationship that you had, whatever the beliefs are, but I don't have these foundational beliefs anymore, but am I still playing by those rules? And how do I decide what rules I want to play by? And that's what the webinar is going to be about. It is free, and I would love to have you there.

SHAY:

Question, because this is probably gonna come out Monday, after this event has already happened. If people register once they hear this episode on Monday, can they access a replay, or how does that work?

LEIKA:

Yeah, if you visit masterclass.leikalewis.com, and I'll provide Shay with the link as well for the show notes. But if you visit masterclass.leikalewis.com, then you will find the registration page for whatever my next offering is.

SHAY:

Perfect. And so that way you'll be able to access it whenever you get to hear this episode.

Oh, wonderful. Leika, you're incredible, and I'm so happy. Again, thank you for contacting us. It's good to meet you.

LEIKA:

Yeah.